Notion same as Notion SLE for Miroslav ?

[bcarwell]

So if I get Notion3 and am running Miroslav in it, it will run the same as if it was in Notion SLE for Miroslav, e.g. there are no specially tuned features/functions/benefits specifically for Miroslav in SLE Miroslav that aren't in Notion3 ? If true, I assume this would be true for Garritan GPO as well, e.g. Notion3 would be able to run GPO identically to running GPO in Notion SLE for GPO ? Reason I'm asking is I happen to have both Miroslav and GPO and was wondering if I should get Notion SLE for Miroslav AND Notion SLE for GPO, or whether I would have the equivalent by getting Notion3 and thereby be able to run Miroslav and GPO in Notion3 just as if they were in the SLE versions. But mostly I'm interested in whether Miroslav would work the same in Notion SLE and Notion3.
And does anybody know if there is a similar or equivalent function in Cubase that lets you change score notation symbols and have it affect midi playback ? Some guy at Cubase said YES, that its "VST Expression" but it look to me like that doesn't have anything to do with the score/notation but rather has to do with programming notes in midi.
Thanks for any insight/clarification. I'm almost ready to pull the trigger and order some form of Notion.

Bob

[Surfwhammy]

So if I get Notion3 and am running Miroslav in it, it will run the same as if it was in Notion SLE for Miroslav, e.g. there are no specially tuned features/functions/benefits specifically for Miroslav in SLE Miroslav that aren't in Notion3 ? If true, I assume this would be true for Garritan GPO as well, e.g. Notion3 would be able to run GPO identically to running GPO in Notion SLE for GPO ? Reason I'm asking is I happen to have both Miroslav and GPO and was wondering if I should get Notion SLE for Miroslav AND Notion SLE for GPO, or whether I would have the equivalent by getting Notion3 and thereby be able to run Miroslav and GPO in Notion3 just as if they were in the SLE versions. But mostly I'm interested in whether Miroslav would work the same in Notion SLE and Notion3.
And does anybody know if there is a similar or equivalent function in Cubase that lets you change score notation symbols and have it affect midi playback ? Some guy at Cubase said YES, that its "VST Expression" but it look to me like that doesn't have anything to do with the score/notation but rather has to do with programming notes in midi.
Thanks for any insight/clarification. I'm almost ready to pull the trigger and order some form of Notion.

Bob

You definitely want to get the full version of NOTION 3!

With the SLE versions, you can use only the specific VSTi instrument and its sampled sound library for the specific version, although as I recall you might be able to use the bundled NOTION instruments, and there are other limiting factors with the SLE versions, so without doubt you want to get the full version, which is NOTION 3 . . .

The advantage of the full version is that you can use all VSTi instruments that are correctly designed and programmed to VSTi standards and guidelines, including Addictive Drums, EWQL virtual instruments, GPO, IK Multimedia virtual instruments, Vienna Ensemble, and lots of other VSTi instruments and libraries . . .

I like IK Multimedia VSTi instruments, including Miroslav Philharmonik, and they work very nicely with NOTION 3 . . .

For the IK Multimedia virtual instruments, there is another thing you can do in NOTION 3 which is very nice, and it is done in the NOTION 3 Mixer by clicking on the name of the instrument for a track, which for IK Multimedia virtual instruments launches the virtual instrument's standalone user interface, where you can do all the advanced stuff that the standalone user interface provides, including adding and modifying special effects, configuring multiple voicings (which in the IK Multimedia virtual instrument universe are called "COMBI" configurations), and so forth and so on . . .

And you can get some very useful IK Multimedia virtual instruments via SampleTank FREE at the IK Multimedia website, which is the full version of the SampleTank engine and comes with approximately 500MB of sampled sounds . . .

SampleTank FREE (IK Multimedia)

Based on what you wrote, my best guess is that you have a Windows computer, and if this is correct, then there are folks who can help you with Windows stuff, including providing some advice on your question about Cakewalk, MIDI, and so forth, as well as with the GPO stuff . . .

[NOTE: The GPO stuff is available for the Mac, as well, but I do not have it and have no experience or insights regarding how to use it productively . . . ]

As an example, this is one of the topics in this FORUM on the GPO stuff, and you can see that there is a lot of advanced expertise available:

Garritan Personal Orchestra (Notion Music FORUM)

I do everything on the Mac, so if you have an Apple computer and need help, let me know, but regardless of the specific platform (Windows or Mac), based on what you wrote, you want to get the full version of NOTION 3, which is fabulous . . .

Fabulous! :)

[fabiolcati]

And does anybody know if there is a similar or equivalent function in Cubase that lets you change score notation symbols and have it affect midi playback ?

Hi Bob.
What are you looking for are Cubase' Expression Maps, something like SoundSets in Sibelius.
Refer to Cubase documentation for more details.
(I'm not -- yet -- a Cubase user, so I can't say they work or not).
Regards

[bcarwell]

Thanks a bunch folks for the helpful replies.
Yes, I do have a Windows machine (reminds me to fix my profile...)
So, I take it the short answer is "Yes", Notion3 would handle Miroslav exactly like it would in Notion SLE for Miroslav (and MORE !), correct ? In other words all the score markings in the demo invoking the audible equivalents from the Miroslav library. And ditto if I used another VSTi like GPO or EWQL, right ?
BTW I posted over at Cubase asking if they have an equivalent function in the notation for Cubase and the answer was also yes, they have VST "Expression" but that it would take some programming. But I had to re-post and ask them to clarify (haven't heard yet) because in my limited knowledge of Cubase Expression I thought it had to do with being able to assign things to individual midi notes on a sequencer or piano roll type track and NOT being able to mark a NOTATION SCORE with conventional articulation, dynamic, etc. markings and have it play back the corresponding sound directly (and with no programming).
Also, unless I'm missing something, is it true that the most cost effective way to get Notion3 is NOT to buy it outright for $249 but rather to buy Notion SLE for Miroslav at $89 and then UPGRADE to Notion 3 for $99 thereby saving a whopping $60 (~25% !). If true, that sure seems silly but nice I suppose in letting you try out the lesser version with no penalty.
Again, thanks to all for taking the time to respond.

Bob

[bcarwell]

Hi its me again. Well I answered my own question. Over at the Cubase forum and on Youtube I found a video that shows the use of a VSL "Expression map" used with Cubase to do exactly what I was wondering about, e.g. making markings in the score and having them reflected in the audible playback automagically. What was confusing me apparently before was that all I had heard about in Cubase was using these Expression Maps in the 'controller lane' and 'key editor' to make the markings and NOT in the score itself. But it appears it is an option in Cubase to either make the markings there OR in the score itself as clearly demonstrated in the video.

Now the only missing part of the puzzle is there is reference in the Cubase forum to a user archive/repository where users can upload these various Expression Maps. Yet I have not seen ANY such uploads and am puzzled. I know that individual sample library vendors may provide them (and indeed VSL has done so in their user area) but I am puzzled why no Cubase <users> have banded together and developed an Expression Map repository since the feature has been available since Cubase 5. I'm wondering if the Expression Map thingie is not all its cracked up to be or has problems and saw at least one user who said it wasn't worth the hassle and preferred to use the 'controller lane' and 'key editor'.

Any insight as to the foregoing and why Cubase "Expression Maps" don't seem to be readily available... or ARE they and I just don't know where to look. Seems to be a plus that Notion has apparently done all the heavy lifting for us...

Bob

[Surfwhammy]

So, I take it the short answer is "Yes", Notion3 would handle Miroslav exactly like it would in Notion SLE for Miroslav (and MORE !), correct ?

Yes! You want to get the full version, which is NOTION 3 . . .

In other words all the score markings in the demo invoking the audible equivalents from the Miroslav library.

Yes!

And ditto if I used another VSTi like GPO or EWQL, right ?

Yes!

With the corresponding NOTION SLE version, you can use only the specified virtual instrument (Miroslav Philharmonik, or whatever), but with the full version you can use all of them, where for example you might decide that the contrabass from Miroslav Philharmonik sounds better than the contrabass from GPO, so for contrabass you will use the one from Miroslav Philharmonik, but for the viola you decide that the viola from GPO sounds better, so you will use the viola from GPO, and then you might decide to add a Rock and Roll acoustic studio drumkit to your string quartet and that the drumkit from Addictive Drums is the one to use (noting that Addictive Drums has a FREE version with nice basic drumkit and no restrictions, which is similar to what IK Multimedia does with SampleTank FREE) . . .

[NOTE: The FREE (a.k.a., "Demo") version of Addictive Drums has a kick drum, snare drum, hi-hat, and crash cymbal, which is a nice basic drumkit . . . ]

Addictive Drums FREE (XLN Audio)

This is a bit of Heavy Metal drumming with some Polka or Ska flavors that I did with the FREE version of Addictive Drums in NOTION 3, and the individual drums and cymbals are played via music notation, which is a lot easier than doing it on a real drumkit, even if you have a pair of Duallist Single-Foot Double Pedals and two kick drums, and as I recall I used a large room plate reverb unit from CSR Classik Studio Reverb (IK Multimedia) on it for a bit of spread. It is a headphone mix, so I have no idea how it works on loudspeakers, but so what . . .

"Addictive Heavy Metal" (The Surf Whammys) -- MP3

So what!

Also, unless I'm missing something, is it true that the most cost effective way to get Notion3 is NOT to buy it outright for $249 but rather to buy Notion SLE for Miroslav at $89 and then UPGRADE to Notion 3 for $99 thereby saving a whopping $60 (~25% !). If true, that sure seems silly but nice I suppose in letting you try out the lesser version with no penalty.

This is the way I did it, and it appears that this strategy is cost effective (starting with NOTION SLE and then upgrading to NOTION 3). However, it is useful to know that the full version (NOTION 3) is shipped rather than downloaded, since it has a large sound sample library on a separate DVD, so there is a shipping charge, and depending on the state where it is shipped in the US, you might need to pay state sales tax, but regardless of shipping and sales tax, it probably saves a few dollars . . .

So, with shipping and possible state sales tax, the saving might be more like $25 to $30, which works for me, since I like a discount, even if it only saves $1 . . .

On a related note, I checked the description for NOTION SLE for Miroslav Philharmonik at the IK Multimedia website, and the NOTION SLE versions do not include the London Symphony Orchestra (LSO) bundled instruments, so this is yet another reason to get the full version (NOTION 3), since the LSO instruments are very nice, and I use some of them, although generally I prefer the instruments in Miroslav Philharmonik . . .

And this is an example of a what one can do with music notation and IK Multimedia virtual instruments in NOTION 3 where the generated audio is recorded as soundbites in Digital Performer 7.24 via ReWire on the Mac and then enhanced with real vocals and various VST effects plug-ins and T-RackS 3 Deluxe (IK Multimedia) for mixing and mastering, along with the ARC System (IK Multimeda) for loudspeaker calibration and room correction . . .

[NOTE: This song is "inspired by" the stellar Beatles song "Lucy In The Sky With Diamonds" and Christina Aguilera's vastly naughty "Not Myself Tonight", and it features the Timeless 2 VST echo unit from FabFilter Software Instruments and the CSR Classik Studio Reverb VST reverb unit from IK Multimedia, as well as a bit of work in the Melodyne Editor (Celemony) to get the singing on pitch and to make the spoken word sections melodic, which is quite interesting and a bit of FUN. And instead of being about a surreal LSD experience, it is focused on absinthe, hence the painting by Viktor Oliva. It is easier to understand the mapping from the Beatles song if you add parentheses "(Lucy In The Sky With) Diamonds", which is the lyrical mapping or phrasing for the chorus . . . ]


"Absinthe Drinker" ~ Viktor Oliva

"(Baby You Were Only) Dreaming" (The Surf Whammys) -- MP3 (9.2MB, 276-kbps [VBR], approximately 4 minutes and 26 seconds)

If you listen to the song with studio quality headphones like the SONY MDR-7506 (a personal favorite), you will hear the notes of some of the instruments moving within what I call the "Spherical Sonic Landscape™", for which my avatar for this FORUM is one vector plane, and I call the technique of putting the notes of an instrument into motion "sparkling", which is very easy to do with music notation in NOTION 3, although it takes a while. The key bit of information about "sparkling" an instrument with music notation in NOTION 3 is that you have very precise control of the panning location, which for reference is a true panning control for stereo tracks rather than being a balance control, which is what makes "sparkling" so easy to do in NOTION 3. In other words, you have absolutely precise control of the panning locations, and the high-level strategy is to create perhaps as many as eight staves for a single instrument, where the each staff is panned to a very precise location, and then you put the notes for the instrument on which ever staff maps to the location where you want the note to be heard. It is easier to do than to explain, but it takes a while, since you need to provide leading rests (although not trailing rests), so you take the original instrument notes and copy them to each of the additional staves, and then you start replacing notes with equal-valued rests in whatever motion panning pattern on the "rainbow panning arc" suits your fancy, and even though it might take several hours to "sparkle" a single instrument for a three to five minute song, it is vastly easier to do it with music notation in NOTION 3 than to do it in a Digital Audio Workstation (DAW) application, which is what makes it practical . . .

[NOTE: In the following "sparkled" section of a single instrument, the top staff is panned to far-left, while the bottom staff is panned to far-right, with the staves in the middle moving from mid-left to top-center to mid-right, so the left side of the "V" does a full "rainbow panning arc" from far-left to top-center to far-right and then the right side of the "V" does the full "rainbow panning arc" in reverse from far-right to top-center to far-left. It takes a while to replace the original instrument notes with equal-valued rests, but this mostly is a matter of doing a virtual festival of mouse clicks to replace the original eighth notes with eighth rests, since there is no other immediately obvious way to do the required editing. For a three to five minute song, it might take an hour or two of nearly constant mouse clicking to do the editing, but I like the way it sounds, and I can deal with the repetitive mouse clicking, in part because I had a job putting sticky price tags on tubes of Crest toothpaste when I was in college, and over three or so years I put sticky price tags on approximately 100 million tubes of Crest toothpaste--one at a time--so doing several thousand mouse clicks is not a big deal here in the sound isolation studio in terms of mindlessly boring work . . . ]


Section of a Sparkled Moog Synthesizer (Harpsichord Preset)

[NOTE: This is best enjoyed when listening with headphones, but instead of being a Moog Synthesizer playing a Harpsichord preset via SampleMoog (IK Multimedia), it is a Psaltery Harp from the IK Multimedia "World Instruments Collection" played via SampleTank 2.5XL . . . ]

"Sparkles" (The Surf Whammys) -- MP3 (4.2MB, 298-kbps [VBR], approximately 1 minute and 55 seconds)

The rules for panning are not the least bit intuitive, but I have been doing experiments on panning, and I have reported the results in a separate topic in this FORUM, where the high-level version is that panning tends to be logarithmic rather than linear with respect to volume and perceived loudness, so notes at the far-left and far-right need to be louder, while notes toward top-center need to have a lower volume, which makes sense if you think about it for a while, since notes at the far edges are only heard from the loudspeakers or headphone for the particular side, while notes at top-center or in the middle are heard from both loudspeakers or headphones . . .

There is a lot of highly advanced stuff that you can do with music notation, virtual instruments, and NOTION 3, especially when you have a nice selection of VSTi synthesizers, which is fabulous . . .

Fabulous!

[bcarwell]

Thanks so much for the very interesting and informative response. I pulled the trigger yesterday and ordered Notion SLE for Miroslav and will then upgrade to full Notion and cannot wait to start playing. And I talked to a guy in Sales to make sure I wasn't missing something about the upgrade path being cheaper than buying the full Notion outright and he confirmed its just a "glitch" in their pricing strategy. Doh...
Your "sparkling" is incredibly creative and I'm happy to say is effective not just visually in a score but audibly. It reminds me of years ago looking at a score of Thomas Tallis (Rennaisance composer I believe) which was a choral work intended for 8 choirs stationed at the 8 corners of a cathedral shaped as they are in the form of a cross. 64 staffs and the score was huge, and he had the choirs answering each other back from various points on the cross. Point is you could envision standing in the center of the cathedral and then imagining the music swirling around your head, which was the obvious intent, and it was fascinating to see how this looked in the score. Reminded me of your example score.
Very nice, interesting work.
And again, many thanks for the advice.

Bob