Invisible (but audible) octave?

[pcartwright]

To tell the truth, I didn't hear anything odd with francois's sample.

It's pretty subtle.

[Surfwhammy]

I do not hear music with N3 Reverb Off. It's really too dull for me.

If you only listen to instruments when there is a lot of reverberation, then what you hear always will be different, because reverberation changes the way instruments sound . . .

This is not necessarily bad, but if you never listen to instruments without reverberation then you never learn how the instruments actually sound, which in turn makes it more difficult to determine useful reverberation settings . . .

I like reverberation, echo, digital delay, phasing, flanging, doubling, and so forth and so on, but it is important to know how everything sounds without it . . .

Nevertheless, the fact of the matter is that reverberation, echo, digital delay, flanging, doubling, and so forth and so on dramatically change the way instruments and voices sound, often in dramatic ways, and in some respects the most dramatic changes are made by reverberation, which as a general rule transforms an instrument or voice in significant ways that affect overall tonal qualities to the point that for all practical purposes running an instrument or voice through reverberation is like running it through an electric guitar effects pedal, which in some respects can give it a cartoon-like quality that makes it a highly-tailored caricature of itself . . .

Explained another way, the combination of (a) being extraordinarily precise with respect to the way specific notes sound but (b) running everything through level-50 dry vs. wet reverberation in a level-50 sized room with level-25 predelay is a bit of a virtual oxymoron, because this level of reverberation and room size with predelay tends to introduce so much sonic blur that expecting anything to sound precise is a bit absurd, really . . .

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reverberation

Really!

Reverberation can be very melodic, as well as rhythmic, which is one of the reasons it is used as an effect for singing in popular music, with "Fame And Fortune" (Elvis Presley) being a stellar example, where in particular Elvis was superbly skilled in what I call "working" a condenser microphones, vacuum-tube compressor-limiters, and vacuum-tube plate and chamber reverberation systems, all of which he controlled primarily by varying (a) the volume level of his singing, (b) the voicing of his singing, and (c) the distance from the condenser microphone, all with mind-boggling precision and finesse, for sure . . .

[NOTE: All these devices initially are setup and configured by audio engineers, but once they are in place, intuitive singers discover how to "work" them, which is easy to observe when you understand the various infrastructure, since among other things this hypothesis is quite consistent with the observed behaviors of singers who perform primarily in amplified scenarios, which for the most part span every scenario except (a) actually being in the same room physically with the singer when there are no amplifiers and loudspeakers or (b) when being in the audience in a concert hall where nothing is amplified by a sound reinforcement system, which for most popular music maps only to a handful of people ever actually hearing how a singer really sounds, since even when the singer is "at home" and sings at the piano or whatever in a television broadcast, nevertheless there is a microphone and elaborate broadcast audio equipment being used with the result that once again everything you hear is electromagnetic in one way or another . . . ]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-oujzwBd9TY

For sure!

In what I call the "digital delay" universe, it is difficult to beat John Lennon (albeit with a bit of help from George Martin and Phil Spector), where specifically this type of what generally is classified under the larger umbrella of reverberation is constrained primarily to the range of typically single-repeat echoes from 25 milliseconds to 100 milliseconds, with it occasionally extending to 250 milliseconds, since anything greater tends to be a large and distinct echo in one way or another . . .

http://app.psychonomic-journals.org/content/70/8/1558.abstract

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haas_effect

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Precedence_effect

[NOTE: John Lennon had extraordinarily precise intuitive rhythmic timing, and he had a lot of FUN with rapid echoes in the range of 25 milliseconds to 100 milliseconds, both in his rhythm guitar playing and in his singing. At first, I think he did it intuitively, perhaps as an ego-motivated effort to be heard, but as he gained more experience in recording studios he did it consciously by design. This is part of what made him such a stellar lead singer, since the overall effect was that his singing literally was easier for listeners to perceive, which was due in no small part to a virtual festival of exquisite auditory illusions . . . ]

"Instant Karma" (Plastic Ono Band) is an excellent example, which is fabulous . . .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EqP3wT5lpa4

Fabulous!

John Lennon also was very skilled in "working" a condenser microphone, as one can observe in this Ed Sullivan Show appearance of the the Beatles in 1964, which was very early in their careers, and he already had a very precise mapping of his vocal range, different voicings, and so forth with respect to the correct distance from the condenser microphone, which is quite fascinating to observe, really . . .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D8j_7VJ0RMw

Really!

Explained yet another way, this is the primary reason that recording studios tend to be very dry rooms, sometimes to the point of being nearly anechoic, or at least semi-anechoic, because it is considerably easier for producers to use reverberation, echo, and so forth as special effects when the recorded tracks are as dry or devoid of reverberation, echo, and so forth as possible, where for example the RAE Multimedia™ sound isolation studio is semi-anechoic, in part due to having a fully floated floor done in a relatively inexpensive but effective way, where after doing a bit of research I found a supply of interlocking rubber mats made from ground truck tires, which were intended for use as floor covering for a wood-working shop or whatever but were on sale due to general lack of interest among people who had wood-working shops, and I augmented the rubber mats with layers of tar paper and fiberglass insulation. Floating a floor on rubber mats is not so effective as floating a floor on an elaborate system of springs and hydraulic dampers, but it costs a lot less and works reasonably well, with one of the keys being to avoid actually attaching the floated floor to the rubber mats or the underlying floor(s), since even a single nail or woodscrew becomes a troublesome pathway for acoustic energy, although more in the upper-mid and higher frequencies . . .

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anechoic_chamber

There are quite a few ways to enhance instruments and voices with reverberation, echo, phasing, flanging, doubling, and so forth and so on, but it is very difficult--if not impossible--to remove these things when they are present in the original recorded tracks, so the best way to have the most precise control over these types of effects is to add them after the fact using effects processors and other types of digital, electronic, and physical equipment . . .

And since some of the auditory illusions created by reverberation, echo, phasing, flanging, doubling, and so forth and so on involve working with very small ranges of time, it tends to be a "by ear" activity, where one can use various rules of acoustic physics and auditory perception as guidelines for setting the initial parameters of these types of effects but fine-tuning is done "by ear", although with constant attention to the various rules, where for example the rules for the Haas Effect provide a few clues with respect to the practical upper and lower boundaries for echo arrival rates and echo volume levels, which has a restricting influence in the sense that if the boundaries thresholds either (a) are not met or (b) are exceeded, then the specific auditory illusion does not occur . . .

Do you believe that N3 could make corrections to this instrument for the next update?

If there were a mistake in the playing and recording of this particular instrument, then one might suppose that anything is possible . . .

I do not think that it makes any sense to do a new recording of the particular instrument, but if it only involves redoing the digitizing step(s) for a specific note and if the specific note is determined to be erroneous, then I suppose that it could be something that makes sense, depending on what is involved in redoing the digitization . . .

Nevertheless, I think that there are more important things to do than to fine-tune the nuances of specific instrument notes . . .

The simpler and more practical solution is to expand your VSTi instrument libraries so that you have more flavors of instruments . . .

For example, this is the sample score you provided but with Miroslav Philharmonik instruments and the same Notion 3 Reverb setting . . .

http://www.surfwhammys.com/FD-Octave-Miroslav-Philharmonik-Reverb.mp3

And this is the sample score you provided but with Miroslav Philharmonik instruments; without Notion 3 Reverb; but with full panning rather than the selected panning . . .

[NOTE: Using the default "full panning" for Miroslav Philharmonik VSTi instruments is interesting, since the instruments were recorded in their typical locations within a full orchestra, so by using full panning you get the benefit of accurate placement within a full orchestra. However, there also are studio recordings of some of the instruments, which have a very different sound than the recordings made in the concert hall . . . ]

http://www.surfwhammys.com/FD-Octave-Miroslav-Philharmonik-No-Reverb-Full-Panning.mp3

If you listen carefully to the second version, you will hear that the "dry" instruments actually have reverberation, which is due to the instruments being played and recorded in a concert hall (specifically, the Rudolfinum Dvorák Concert Hall)


Rudolfinum Dvorák Concert Hall

In contrast, the London Symphony Orchestra (LSO) samples for Notion 3 were recorded in Abbey Road Studios, which is where the Beatles were recorded, so the LSO samples will be very different, which is fine with me . . .

There are differences in the Notion 3 LSO samples and the Miroslav Philharmonik samples, and I use the specific instrument samples that are best suited to what I want to do . . .

These are real instruments played by real musicians, and there will be differences, no matter how it is done . . .

If you want everything to be completely and totally precise in every respect, then there are several ways to achieve this goal:

(1) hire musicians to play specific instruments in whatever setting you require . . .

(2) play the specific instruments yourself . . .

(3) construct the emulated sounds of the specific instruments with an advanced synthesizer . . .

Of these three options, the most practical is (3), since a good bit of the work already is done for many different types of instruments using a variety of advanced synthesizers . . .

For example, IK Multimedia has several advanced synthesizer VSTi libraries with standalone user interfaces that make it possible to fine-tune the various presets . . .

http://www.ikmultimedia.com/samplemoog/features/

http://www.ikmultimedia.com/soniksynth/features/

[NOTE: There are Xpansion Tank 2 multi-sampled libraries for OmniSynth 2, SampleArp Solo, and SampleOB Xpander. You can listen to some of the samples by clicking on "Read more", where you will find the online audio player . . . ]

http://www.ikmultimedia.com/xpansiontank/multisamples/

MOTU has an advanced synthesizer (MX4) that looks interesting, as well . . .

http://www.motu.com/products/software/mx4/

And there are other VSTi synthesizers, really . . .

Really!

[Surfwhammy]

Here’s another example: listen to the half note d# in the second measure. It’s clearly being doubled and sounds totally different then the d# in the first measure.

The high notes on the Oboe and Flute in this excerpt from "Octandre" (Edgard Victor Achille Charles Varèse) are well beyond the limits of being annoying, which from a non-judgmental perspective might be marvelous for the particular genre and certainly makes it stellar for use as a passive defensive weapon to repel adolescents toward the goal of discouraging them from congregating and attempting to reproduce in public places . . .

From my perspective, everything is very nice until the ultra high notes, but I appreciate the dissonance, so I did an experiment by replacing the London Symphony Orchestra (LSO) Notion 3 VSTi instruments with corresponding instruments from Miroslav Philharmonik, as well as by using the Brick Wall Limiter from T-RackS 3 Deluxe on the Flute, which preserves the dissonance but in way that is not quite so annoying . . .

I also changed the default Notion 3 Reverb settings, where the new settings are {Dry/Wet = 25, Room = 50, Damping = 0, Pre-delay = 0}, since the Miroslav Philharmonik instruments are recorded in a concert hall, hence already have a good bit of reverberation . . .

http://www.surfwhammys.com/Octandre-Miroslav-Philharmonik.mp3

It is supposed to be dissonant, and it might help to use the composer's dynamics as shown in this YouTube video, which appears to have the original music notation for the piece, although perhaps not, really . . .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E8FcxVKIAwo

Really!

And based on the various related musical compositions one tends to find in YouTube and Google, I think this clearly establishes me as the only truly profound composer of the early-21st century in this particular genre, specifically 13-Tone Idiot Savant Moderne Absurde Nouveau™, especially considering that in "Starlight" (The Surf Whammys), the definitive work in this genre, everything except the rhythm guitar chords was composed, played on real instruments (as was the rhythm guitar, but I practiced the chords for a while, since they are very intricate), and recorded in real-time on the fly precisely one time on the first take--albeit one instrument at a time, which is all I can play at one time--where the first version does not have the grand piano and fog synthesizer, since I decided several months later that it needed a bit of grand piano and plenty of fog and have not had time since then to do a new mix to include the grand piano and fog with the other instruments, except for a prototype mix that has the grand piano, fog, and singing (which I need to pitch-correct in a few places with the Melodyne Editor), which is fabulous . . .

http://www.surfwhammys.com/music/10_Starlight_1.0.mp3

http://www.surfwhammys.com/music/11_Starlight_2.2_Grand_Piano.mp3

http://www.surfwhammys.com/music/10_Starlight_2.2.mp3

Fabulous!

[Francois2010]

I do not hear music with N3 Reverb Off. It's really too dull for me.

If you only listen to instruments when there is a lot of reverberation, then what you hear always will be different, because reverberation changes the way instruments sound . . .
This is not necessarily bad, [...]

Hi Surfwhammy,
My answer was not precise. I prefer to write and listen to the music I write with reverb. But I'm still testing with no reverb.

I also composed a piece of music without any articulation and dynamic and no reverb. I read this summer should not hide or correct errors with effects. I then added the dynamics, articulations (to the meaning and purpose given by N3), etc..

Concerning the topic of this post: we hear very clearly the same octave invisible with no reverb. I composed when it happened and it upsets me very much.

Note: I have read and sometimes use the Google translator (not very accurate!) to understand what is written in this Forum. I am French (Montreal) and I do not speak English very often.

[Surfwhammy]

I do not hear music with N3 Reverb Off. It's really too dull for me.

If you only listen to instruments when there is a lot of reverberation, then what you hear always will be different, because reverberation changes the way instruments sound . . .
This is not necessarily bad, [...]

Hi Surfwhammy,
My answer was not precise. I prefer to write and listen to the music I write with reverb. But I'm still testing with no reverb.

I also composed a piece of music without any articulation and dynamic and no reverb. I read this summer should not hide or correct errors with effects. I then added the dynamics, articulations (to the meaning and purpose given by N3), etc..

Concerning the topic of this post: we hear very clearly the same octave invisible with no reverb. I composed when it happened and it upsets me very much.

Note: I have read and sometimes use the Google translator (not very accurate!) to understand what is written in this Forum. I am French (Montreal) and I do not speak English very often.

Try not to get too upset! :)

The "invisible octave" clearly is present with or without Notion 3 Reverb, but if you use the Miroslav Philharmonik Trombone the problem does not occur . . .

It might be a "bug" in the specific Notion 3 VSTi instrument, but it just as easily can be a subtle nuance of the way the specific instrument is played, recorded, and digitized . . .

Since it does not happen with Miroslav Philharmonik, I tend to think that it is a behavior of the VSTi instrument . . .

If there are 100 instruments in a typical orchestra, then if each instrument is sampled hundreds of times, this maps to thousands of individual samples that need to be digitized, and while there are ways to automate parts of the overall process, I am not surprised when there are a few odd behaviors with specific notes, because there are so many variables that expecting perfection in everything is not so practical, especially with instruments that by definition are imprecise, which includes nearly every instrument, really . . .

Really!

In fact, some instruments are tuned imprecisely on purpose, with the best examples being grand piano and every guitar that does not have a True Temperament custom-designed neck, since grand pianos and guitar use equal temperament tuning in varying flavors, which by definition, design, and implementation are compromises . . .

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal_temperament

http://www.truetemperament.com/site/index.php

Miroslav Philharmonik also has odd behaviors, as probably do all VSTi instrument libraries, so from my perspective the practical solution is to have a variety of different flavors of instruments . . .

Even if all the various conditions were as identical as is physically possible (studio or concert hall, relative humidity, temperature, microphones, recording equipment, instruments, musicians, and so forth and so on), there will be variations, if only because the musicians will play everything a tiny bit differently and all the instruments will be just a tiny bit different for a variety of reasons, really . . .

Really!

And even if everything were as identical as possible, something so simple has having a grand piano tuned using a method that was not identical to the method used when the grand piano was tuned in the previous recording sessions would create unavoidable differences in the resulting digitized samples . . .

For electric guitar, something so apparently trivial as 30 minutes of elapsed time on a particular set of strings will change the TONE of the guitar in noticeable ways . . .

There simply are too many variables to expect perfection in every instance, for sure . . .

For sure!

[Francois2010]

Hello Surfwhammy

I understand that N3 is able to use the instrument of Miroslav Philharmonik.

I visited the site a bit and I realized they did not mention Windows 7 to equip the minumum. Does this could cause problems?

What is the site for purchase and download Miroslav Philharmonik? I do not want a musical keyboard, the only sound bank for use with N3.

I guess with N3, one can find and use instruments by N3> Score> Setup as shown here?

[pcartwright]

First, Mirsolav runs well on Win7.

Second, have you tried using a Notion2 trombone instead of a Notion3 trombone? This may take care of your problem.

[Francois2010]

First, Mirsolav runs well on Win7.

Second, have you tried using a Notion2 trombone instead of a Notion3 trombone? This may take care of your problem.

Hello pcartwright,
Done. I no longer hear the octave effect. But the sound of the trombone is much less interesting in N2. Seeking instruments N2 I noticed Miroslav Phiharmonik in the list of instruments. It also gives an answer to the question I posed in the preceding message.

Thank you!

[Surfwhammy]

Hello Surfwhammy
What is the site for purchase and download Miroslav Philharmonik? I do not want a musical keyboard, the only sound bank for use with N3.

I get IK Multimedia products from the IK Multimedia website store, since it is easier and faster most of the time . . .

The only caveat is that Miroslav Philharmonik has 7GB of sound samples, so downloading it takes a while even if you have high-speed broadband cable . . .

And regarding the standalone user interface, it is very powerful and makes it possible to adjust the sampled sounds in a variety of ways, as well as to create combinations of different articulations and playing styles for a specific instrument, which is one of the things that makes it such a stellar orchestral VSTi sample library . . .

So, while you do not want a musical keyboard, the musical keyboard part of the standalone user interface has other uses, where for example you can use it to create "zones" where depending on the "zone" a specific instrument articulation or style will be played . . .

The keyboard is provided so that you can hear how specific notes sound when you are selecting among the various playing styles and articulations, as well as making advanced modifications to the sampled sounds . . .

It is an excellent product, and based on the other recent replies, I think that when folks say that it works nicely in Windows 7, this is accurate information, for sure . . .

For sure!

[Surfwhammy]

I guess with N3, one can find and use instruments by N3> Score> Setup as shown here?

This is the Notion 3 dialog box for selecting Miroslav Philharmonik instruments, and it has simple high-level selections . . .



But for more detailed selecting, this is the standalone user interface, which you can access in Notion 3 in several ways . . .



Some of the instruments only have a simple high-level item, but other instruments have hundreds of items, where for example there are approximately 200 different French Horn stereo presets representing different styles of playing, articulating, ensembles, tuning, soloing, and so forth and so on, each of which is played by musicians in the specific style, articulation, and so forth, which is the best way to get the true sound of styles, articulations, and so forth . . .

And there is another festival of monaural French Horn presets, where in total there are so many specific French Horns in ensembles, soloing, stereo, monaural, and so forth that counting all of them could take several hours . . . .

For example, there are eight different articulations for Solo French Horn recorded in stereo where the playing style or technique is "flutter" . . .

I like French Horn and Piccolo Trumpet, but I am not having much success finding a Piccolo Trumpet, really . . .

Really!

I have been focusing on making sense of all the various controls in the IK Multimedia standalone user interfaces their various products (Sample Tank 2.5 and Miroslav Philharmonik in particular), and there is a lot more stuff than one might imagine . . .

For the Sample Tank 2.5 standalone user interface, there are 80 or so special effects, each of which has a variety of parameters that can be adjusted separately and then saved as a user-define preset, and there are all the traditional synthesizer controls and parameters, which in some respects makes it at least as complex as operating a nuclear power plant or flying a commercial jet airplane, which is what makes it so powerful and flexible with respect to getting very specific sounds . . .

In the VSTi instrument universe, when you extend Sample Tank 2.5 with Xpansion Tank 2 and its Multi-Sampled sound libraries and then add Miroslav Philharmonik, my best guess at present is that you have somewhere in the range of 100,000 to 250,000 unique instruments, which is simply mind-boggling . . .

Mind-boggling!

Adding SonikSynth 2, SampleMoog, and SampleTron probably increases the total to 500,000 unique instruments, which in some respects is like finding a planet named "Crayola" that has billions of different colors of crayons, each of which can be modified extensively to create even more variations . . .

The primary goal of this most recent bit of musical lunacy was to discover how to make Dubstep "noises", and for a while I was pondering the practicality of purchasing some Dubstep sound samples, but after doing a bit of reading and experimenting, it appears that I can create all these types of sounds with the various IK Multimedia VSTi instruments that I already have, which in some instances I can enhance with Notion 3 VSTi instruments by having orchestral instruments play the same notes as synthesizers, although in the process of making sense of all this stuff I decided to get Reason 5 (Propellerhead Software), since it appears to be yet another way to create new sounds (but not as VSTi instruments, so I drive it via MIDI notes that I export from Notion 3 and import to Reason 5, which I then record as soundbites in Digital Performer 7) . . .

Summarizing, there is a lot more to the IK Multimedia standalone user interfaces than one might imagine, which is fabulous . . .

Fabulous!