Combining sound libraries

[GeorgePaul]

I have been using NOTION for a number of years to back-up a small ensemble in live concerts.
Now, I am trying to make some symphonic tracks for a soprano to record a demo. In doing so, my main problem is to get as much realism from the strings sections as possible. Currently I only have NOTION´s 2, 3 and MIROSLAV libraries.

The attached excerpt's track has a combination of those string libraries mixed at different volume levels; Mainly NOTION 3, a little less of NOTION 2, even less of MIROSLAV, and just a touch of MIROSLAV SOLOS.
All these sections panned the same way; First violins at 0, Second Violins at 45, Violas at 90, Cellos at 135, and Double Basses at 180 degrees.

Since my computer is not powerful enough to handle all those libraries at the same time in NOTION´s interface (The sound was very chopped up and often got the Blue Screen of Death) I exported all the sounds in separated dry tracks, used SONAR 8.5 to mix them up and added “CLASSICAL SMALL” Studioverb´s reverb preset to all of them. For the trumpet solo, I reduced the hall size and reverb level to bring it a bit forward from the strings.

I would love to hear opinions and advise from other users of this great music tool.

Best wishes for all this new decade.
Jorge

[fabiolcati]

Hi Jorge.
Very good job!
Is the tune an original of yours or a transcritpion?
I've found that the most realistic sound is the trumpet one.
The strings sounds at least a little bit distorted, even a little "synthy".
My way is to add lots of hairpins going from one dynamic to a slight different one throughout a score.
Since yours comes from various sources, try giving them different (light) crescendos and diminuendos
stanting point (a note ahead, a note after) in each VST. And alter the value of dynamic marks from section to section and VST to Vst.
The bass department has an interesting tone (to me a major strenght of Notion' own library. I prefer it to Garritans' double bass section,
while N3 cellos were better before they upgraded it).
Best wishes to you too.

[pcartwright]

First, this sounds very nice.

I do need to echo Fabio's comments about the strings, they don't quite give the impression I think you're looking for. In addition to Fabio's suggestion, you might want to add bass harmonics and treble harmonics (exciter) plugins to your strings bus. I use NastyLF and NastyHF with pretty good results.

[GeorgePaul]

Thanks a lot guys for your opinions.

This baroque piece is a transcription. It was written by Jeremiah Clarke and its original name is Prince of Denmark's March. I play it at weddings with my ensemble. I´ll try your advises and post again, meanwhile, feel free to use the attached NOTION file. I´ve posted it with NOTION 3 sounds only due to the size limitations to upload files.

Cheers !

Jorge

[Surfwhammy]

This baroque piece is a transcription. It was written by Jeremiah Clarke and its original name is Prince of Denmark's March. I play it at weddings with my ensemble. I´ll try your advises and post again, meanwhile, feel free to use the attached NOTION file. I´ve posted it with NOTION 3 sounds only due to the size limitations to upload files.

Cheers !

Jorge

It is an interesting piece, and I did a few experiments with it, where I set some of the instruments to Miroslav Philharmonik . . .

One of the things I noticed about the Solo Trumpet is that staccato on the high G (the single dot atop the note) makes it blare, so I removed the staccato mark on all the high G Solo Trumpet notes, which makes it smoother . . .

I used T-RackS 3 Deluxe (IK Multimedia) for mastering but also for some of its individual signal processors, and since my primary focus continues to be DISCO, Heavy Metal, Rock and Roll, and so forth, I used the Opto-Compressor to do a tiny bit of "pumping" on the various instruments using the "NICE SWEETENING" preset for the solo instruments and the "2 DB FAST COMP" for everything else. And I used the "MASTER 1" mastering preset for the Master stereo output track . . .

For the most part, I set all the levels in Notion 3 to 0db and then use the output level of the T-RackS 3 Deluxe standalone Opto-Compressor to adjust the loudness of the various instruments, although the primary reason for doing it this way is that I get the Notion 3 tracks into Digital Performer via ReWire, and it works better for the Notion 3 tracks to be set to 0db for purposes of recording them as DIgital Performer soundbites, so I adjust the levels in Digital Performer rather than In Notion 3, even though for this particular MP3, I only used Notion 3, really . . .

Really!

At present, I do not have an echo plug-in (VST) that Notion 3 recognizes, so I used Panorama 3D (Wave Arts) on the solo trumpet to give it a bit of space or something, since I like to have echo on solo instruments, although Panorama 3D does not actually do echo, but so so what . . .

So what!

And I removed the damping and predelay from the Notion 3 Reverb on the Master stereo output track but left the reverb and room size as they were (both set to 50). The problem with predelay is that it affects the timing and rhythm, and damping tends to dull everything, so I set both of them to 0 . . .

When I am working with the Notion 3 tracks in Digital Performer (MOTU), I remove all the Notion 3 Reverb, since I can adjust everything more precisely with Digital Performer plug-ins, but when working solely with Notion 3, I like its Reverb but not the damping and predelay . . .

I worked on it for an hour or two, and I think the current version sounds like something that one might hear as the soundtrack for a BBC mystery show ("Masterpiece Theater" or "Perot"), where the solo trumpet is a bit smoother and in some respects more like a French horn . . .

Regarding the violins, it took me a while to find something that sounds good to my ears, and after listening to the piece for a while, I realized that Violin I actually is playing the same notes as the Solo Trumpet, so it has to be in the same spatial location as the Solo Trumpet, which basically maps to there being just one violin section (Violin II) that is doing something different, so I panned Violin II to the left and balanced it with the Viola, which I panned to the right . . .

I put the Violinchelo in the top center but panned the String Bass across the full range . . .

Done this way, Violin II and Viola create a bit of motion on the left and right, and the Cello ("Violinchelo") and String Bass ("Bass") are there on the bottom with the Cello adding a bit of motion in the middle (top center) . . .

And I panned the Harpsichord the same way as the String Bass, so it appears on the left and right . . .

Whether this sounds good to folks who prefer Classical music is another matter, but I like to be able to hear all the instruments, and the dynamics of most Classical pieces are a bit beyond annoying to me, so I usually run everything through a compressor to reduce the dynamic range, which in the grand scheme of everything probably is annoying to Classical folks, but so what . . .

So what!

I like Classical music, but when I listen to it on the radio or iPod, every once in a while I start wondering if the song stopped, so I turn up the volume and then without fail sooner or later the dynamics switch to forte and it is too loud . . .

In my universe, everyone plays loud even when it is a quieter section, which I realize tends to defeat the purpose of having dynamics, but it works for me . . .

These are the links to the Notion 3 project file (3MB) and the MP3 (3.4MB) of the Surfwhammy remix, which is fabulous . . .

http://www.surfwhammys.com/TROMPETA-VOLUNTARIO-Surfwhammy-Mix.notion

http://www.surfwhammys.com/TROMPETA-VOLUNTARIO-Surfwhammy-Mix.mp3

Fabulous!

I exercised considerable restraint by not adding Heavy Metal double-kick drums and snare drum rimshots, Latin percussion instruments, and an Indian instrument section, which is one of my favorite current rhythmic techniques for every genre, as you can hear in this 45-second piece, which is somewhat Classical and is the music for the spoken-word prologue for "Sugar Plum Fairies and Rocking Horse Elves" (The Surf Whammys), which is a song about a fellow who finds at Magic Sugar Plum in the backyard on Christmas Eve, takes a bite or two, and then has a surreal experience for a while, which is one of the songs that will be on the Surf Whammys "anti-holiday" album sometime in the not so distant future, along with "Santa's Very Jolly" and "Happy Chinese New Year (I'm Not Wearing Underpants), really . . .

http://www.surfwhammys.com/Ode-To-A-Mode-Surfwhammy-12-31-2010-ST-N3.mp3

Really!

P. S. I use a 2.8-GHz 8-core Mac Pro with 8GB of memory (8x1GB) and 5TB of very fast hard drive storage, so there are fewer restrictions, although I think that one can do something similar with an high-end Windows machine . . .

The only hard limits are 50 Notion 3 instruments at a time, but I devised a "workaround" where I clone the original Notion 3 project file and then use various clones to replace some of the original instruments with even more instruments, with the overall result that I can have hundreds of instruments but only 50 at a time, which is fine with me . . .

Digital Performer (MOTU) has a similar restriction on the total number of tracks, but instead of having clones of the Digital Performer project, I use "bounce to disk" for sets of tracks to create a merged stereo soundbite, which then replaces all the original tracks and thereby frees the original tracks for other instruments, which is the digital version of the techniques that George Martin and Phil Spector used when everything was done with 2-track and 4-track analog magnetic tape machines . . .

With the exception of custom software and a specially designed supercomputer, there will be limits to every machine in the Mac and Windows universes, so the important thing is to be able to devise a practical strategy for having as many instruments and tracks as you desire, which is not difficult to do and does not require so much extra work, although it does require a bit of planning with respect to the way sets of instruments are blended . . .

The primary difference in the digital universe is that in great contrast to the analog magnetic tape universe there is no generational loss, but in some respects this creates another problem, which to be specific is that background noise, hiss, and so forth tend to be cumulative, so you need to be careful about getting strong levels and avoiding background noise, hiss, and so forth . . .

And one of the things that is particularly outstanding about Notion 3 is that for the most part all the VSTi instruments have strong levels, so there is not a lot of background noise, hiss, and so forth, for sure . . .

For sure! :)

[GeorgePaul]

WOW ¡! I am impressed with all the work you did to the piece. Congratulations and thanks a lot for taking the time to do it and sharing it with us.

You are right about the Trumpet staccato on that G, it pops out too much. Maybe a semi-staccato?

When I was a student my cello teacher once told me “Play that (a Bach Suite for cello solo) and make it sound like an organ” I asked her “Why not like a cello?” pointing at my cello… (She had it with me after a while)

So, why tweak a trumpet to make it sound like a French horn? Just curious.

Regarding panning, I tried to place the different sounds as if I was hearing the piece in a concert hall. That is, facing the orchestra, First Violins to the far left, Second Violins to the right of the center, Violas in the middle, Cellos to the right, and Double Basses to the far right. Harpsichord behind the Basses, and Trumpet right in the middle, in front of the orchestra. There are some orchestras that position Cellos in the middle and First Violins facing the Violas, so there is not a written law for set-ups really. Panning the double bass and harpsichord all across the full range, gives me the impression it is a recording made in a large church or cathedral, which is very nice too.

I will try your way to tweak with different reverbs settings for each section of the orchestra to emulate different “deeps” to each one. That would be very interesting to hear.

Regarding Dynamics ranges, I could not agree more with you. No matter how sophisticated and advance a sound system is, it is no match for a live orchestra playing in a well-acoustical-designed concert hall. The sound coming up from cardboard cones will never sound better than the sound coming up directly from a musical instrument. Here, my advice if you want to really experience the magic of dynamics in classical music, is to attend concerts. Me and my classical-music colleagues will immensely appreciate one more supporter for this hard and (seems at times), agonizing profession.

Playing everything loud all the time? … I am not sure about it pal.

I think playing with a wide array of dynamics adds to the music so much, even if it is Rock & Roll, take for instance Led Zeppelin, just to name one. Even on stage (The Song Remains the Same concert, for instance) they played with different dynamics, adding more drama and force to their songs, especially when they played softly to suddenly crank all the volume up.

Regarding creativity, you should never restrain yourself. I would love to hear those drums on the Voluntary! On September 2010, we (my ensemble) played a Rock & Roll concert with fiddles. It went ok. Not that we were inventing lukewarm water or anything, but people liked it. They clapped loud For the opening we played this:

Himno a la Alegria.notion

(2.67 MiB) Downloaded 619 times

After a dozen of pieces we close the show with this:

Bohemian Rapsody N3.notion

(1.99 MiB) Downloaded 604 times

(try them with Miroslav solo instruments, sounds a bit better)

Regarding equipment, mine is far, far, far away from the High-End Windows level, LET ALONE the Mac World.,but I will follow your directions and see how far I can reach.

Best regards, Jorge.

PS. Hearing Surf Whammys samples right now

[marcato]

Greetings from snowbound Montreal!

I might be jumping aboard as the train is leaving, but I have to say I was fascinated by the liveliness of the exchange pertaining to "classical" use of Notion.
My two cents worth here about staccato: my impression is that the standard staccato implemented in Notion works as it should on piano but quickly becomes too much of a good thing on many other instruments including trumpet.
As for the Jeremiah Clarke tune, I think it became a de facto "standard" in the wedding repertoire in the wake of the Lady Di -- Prince Charles down the aisle extravaganza of 1981.

For some reason, George, your Bohemian Rhapsody remains silent when I load it up on my Notion 3 setup. And yes, I own Mirosloav Philharmonik.

Take care

Dave Thorne (aka Marcato)

[GeorgePaul]

Hey Dave ¡
The train came back again. Welcome aboard !
I found a very interesting tutorial page regarding “classical” mixing and the use of reverb in virtual classical orchestras.

http://www.beat-kaufmann.com/gentutoria ... /index.php

I find it fascinating as well ! (I am kind of new to all this technical processes, maybe that’s why

Regarding the Bohemian Rhapsody, I have no idea what’s wrong, I’ve just downloaded the same file from the Notion’s page and it opened fine in my desktop. Maybe if you reload sounds from Miroslav ?
Anyone here to help solving this riddle?

Cheers !

[marcato]

Very well, George!
I also wish to react to Surfwhammy's comments on "spicing up" classical music with artefacts like compressors, expanders, filters, equalizers i tutti quanti.
While these devices are bona fide tools in any recording studio and cosmetic enhancers in rock, pop, metal etc., they are to be handled with extreme parcimony in the classical realm. Like wine in haute cuisine.
But I think any elaboration would be beyond the scope of the present thread. It is my intention to launch a new line of discussion specifically addressing the issue.
I just want to say here my main purpose in acquiring Notion 3 as yet another wapon in my arsenal, is to reproduce as closely as possible the environment of the baroque and/or symphony orchestra.
See you guys.

[achambily]

But I think any elaboration would be beyond the scope of the present thread. It is my intention to launch a new line of discussion specifically addressing the issue.

I'm very interested in this because I'm trying to achieve the same purpose as you...