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Group Rules Not Working...

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Group Rules Not Working...

Postby kmlandre » Wed Sep 11, 2013 7:30 pm

Hi There-

I'm having a bit of trouble with the attached Group ID prules file (derived from the "KNTK_GROUP_1_5_TBone.prules" file) and I'm hoping someone (Admin?) can help...

I believe I've got the initial setup of everything the way it needs to be:

1) Score is located in C:\blah\blah\blah\Documents.

2) Rules directory is located in C:\blah\blah\blah\Documents\Rules.

3) Rule file is located inside the rule directory as C:\blah\blah\blah\Documents\Rules\uForj_VaqueroFlute_SIPS.prules

4) I've "Shift-Y'ed" and added "mfvf" as the "Use Rules" Group ID at the beginning of the piece.

However, it seems the rules are ignored completely...

Kurt

PS - This was originally posted in another thread, but hasn't received any response, so I'm bumping it up a level, hoping someone can help...
Attachments
uForj_VaqueroFlute_SIPS.zip
.prules file in question...
(827 Bytes) Downloaded 147 times
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Re: Group Rules Not Working...

Postby Admin » Thu Sep 12, 2013 12:10 pm

What are you trying to accomplish with this rule document? It is very hard to tell without a test file.

What VST are you using?

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Re: Group Rules Not Working...

Postby kmlandre » Thu Sep 12, 2013 6:04 pm

Hi Admin-

I'm using Kontakt with a custom library I'm building, but I'm a little confused by the question - why would the VST matter for a group rule? Am I missing something?

Basically, the logic behind the script is like this:

Code: Select all
IF
   the note is the first note of a slur
     ~ or ~
   the note is under a slur
THEN
   increase the duration of the note by a factor of 1.5x

IF
   the note is the last note of a slur
THEN
   decrease the duration of the note by a factor of 0.9x


It's intended to trigger a legato script native to the library.

Hope that clears things up...

Thx,

Kurt M. Landre'
http://www.SoundCloud.com/kmlandre
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Re: Group Rules Not Working...

Postby wcreed51 » Thu Sep 12, 2013 6:17 pm

There's no way to comment on rules without knowing something about the library they're controlling...

The kind of script you describe would be more for live playing. You might be better severed by having keyswitches/CCs select the legato patch in Kontakt.
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Re: Group Rules Not Working...

Postby kmlandre » Fri Sep 13, 2013 4:08 am

wcreed51 wrote:There's no way to comment on rules without knowing something about the library they're controlling...

The kind of script you describe would be more for live playing. You might be better severed by having keyswitches/CCs select the legato patch in Kontakt.


Hmmm. I'm not sure I understand that.

It's a fairly common legato scripting technique that I'm using, wherein when an overlap between a note-off event and a note-on event will cause the newest note to start the sample playback *after* the initial attack.

It should work for *any* instrument that's setup for it, and in fact I know Notion can trigger the Kontakt script because if I manually adjust the duration of the notes on the score, everything works just fine. But that's a lot of extra work I don't want to go to when the slur mark should kick it off anyway...

But in this particular case, it's a simple flute patch (but again, it *should* work with any similarly scripted Kontakt instrument).

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Re: Group Rules Not Working...

Postby Admin » Fri Sep 13, 2013 10:07 am

The reason that I asked was becasue I was going to try the document out in a similar environment. These rules which you have created are very subtle and I want to make sure that you might not just be missing what they are doing. Some of the slur rules can be a bit finicky. I will look over it shortly.



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Re: Group Rules Not Working...

Postby Admin » Fri Sep 13, 2013 12:26 pm

Here are my findings:

In general the document is working. I set this up in Notion using Kontakt Factory Bansuri Flute. The rules do cause some type of effect to the releases of the notes under a slur. I think you are getting some type of conflict with your under-slur usages. Your Syntax looks correct. I suggest toying around with it a bit more. The only way that I could tell that the document was working was when I turned the rules off by commenting them out, the durations went back to full. I think you need to run some tests on each rule to see what works for you and what doesn't.

Basically, what I found was that if I extend the lenghts of the notes in the Notion score, I could effect what the durations would do. In other words, test with slowing down the playback or tempo of the score to see if you are getting better results. The release samples in Kontakt would come early, but I could not extend the length of the samples even when the number was set to >1. There may be some tinkering you need to do with some of the note-after-note and note-before-note conditions. Also, I tried to remove the under-slur condition from the slurred-attack rule because technically, the attack note of the slur is not under the slur.

I am not exactly sure why you have the main sound set to MIDI pitch 1. Do you have keyswitches in your instrument library?

I will tinker with this a bit more when I get some more time. I will also talk to one of our developers about it on Monday.

The best information I can give at this time is that I can get the rule document to effect the score using Group Rules. I can't get the desired effect of what it appears you are going for to happen. It could be easier to see what you are trying to accomplish if I saw your test .notion document.

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Re: Group Rules Not Working...

Postby kmlandre » Fri Sep 13, 2013 5:33 pm

Thanks for looking into it.

In the meantime, here's a short test file that illustrates what I'm blathering on about:
Flute Test.notion
(73.8 KiB) Downloaded 145 times


In this case, if you use the SIPS legato script, it's "lack of triggering" occurs in the same manner as mine...

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Re: Group Rules Not Working...

Postby Admin » Mon Sep 16, 2013 12:38 pm

If you are specifically speaking of SIPS in Kontakt, I can tell you that these scripts generate some performance issues when they are used in Notion with Kontakt. Specifically, you must make sure that the SIPS are sending note-off data. If they do not, the SIPS will bog down your CPU and eventually, you will get a lot of pops and clicks due to an overload in Voices.

I know that is a bit off topic, but I thought I would share my experience with you about it.

It seems that you are using the Kontakt Scripts and the Notion Rules at the same time. I am sure that this is going to generate some difficulty in determining which software is handling playback and when they are handling it. Have you tried creating Notion rules without using the SIPS files in Kontakt and vice versa? I would recommend using either the Kontakt Scripts or the Notion Rules, but not both together for cleaner test scenarios. They are probably conflicting with each other. You can effectively generate good Notion playback with the Notion Rules without using the SIPS in Kontakt. I do understand that the Kontakt scripting is very powerful, so you may want to disregard Notion rules for this purpose.

Frankly, we are not always capable of handling every type of function that Kontakt supports. I am sure that in the future we will be working toward a more seamless hosting platform with Kontakt, but as you are aware, Kontakt is sort of the wild west in sample land and there are a lot of amazing capabilities within that platform.

If I discover any new information in regards to Notion and Kontakt, I will be sure to comment again. By the way, what library is the Vaquero Flute shipped in?

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Re: Group Rules Not Working...

Postby kmlandre » Mon Sep 16, 2013 1:29 pm

Admin wrote:If you are specifically speaking of SIPS in Kontakt, I can tell you that these scripts generate some performance issues when they are used in Notion with Kontakt. Specifically, you must make sure that the SIPS are sending note-off data. If they do not, the SIPS will bog down your CPU and eventually, you will get a lot of pops and clicks due to an overload in Voices.

I know that is a bit off topic, but I thought I would share my experience with you about it.


Thanks for the head's up! I will keep that in mind, though my legato script is quite a bit simpler than the SIPS script (but I certainly stole a few concepts from it). I can see the same problem becoming an issue, however, even with my script.

Admin wrote:Have you tried creating Notion rules without using the SIPS files in Kontakt and vice versa? I would recommend using either the Kontakt Scripts or the Notion Rules, but not both together for cleaner test scenarios.


Yes, I've tried the rules both on a "standard" non-SIPS, non-custom legato patch (just raw samples spread across the keyboard, basically), and on the custom patches. You can actually see on the Kontakt keyboard when I've manually increased the duration of the note, as the previous key is still shows as down when the new note starts. I even tried a plain patch on another sampler (Engine 2.0) to make sure I wasn't seeing things, but the rules didn't work there either. The rules appear to be ignored regardless of what's on the other end.

However, everything works exactly as desired when I *manually* increase the note duration in Notion (using TAB and stretch on the notehead). And, as mentioned above, there's visual confirmation that it's happening on Kontakt keyboard. That's what leaves me convinced that the problem is somewhere in the rules (probably not in Notion itself as other people have been able to get similar things working, obviously).

Now, if Notion allowed me to simply select a group of notes and increase the duration by a given factor, I wouldn't even be messing with the rules. I'd simply select a phrase, feed in my duration factor, and click "go"...

As far as I can tell, however, the only automated way to change note duration in Notion is to use the randomize function, which of course would leave me still manually adjusting a bunch of noteheads...

Admin wrote:By the way, what library is the Vaquero Flute shipped in?


None, yet, and it may never as they were released under the CC Attribution-NonCommercial license. However, it's unclear if the original owner wanted them to not be resold as samples and sample libraries or if he intended them to not be used in commercial music at all. Still hoping to work that out...

Thx,

Kurt M. Landre'
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