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How To Hide Empty Staves

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How To Hide Empty Staves

Postby Funkybot » Thu Jun 13, 2013 9:21 pm

Ok, so I'm scoring a piano/vocal piece...

The piano plays solo for 8 measures with no vocals. So I've got 4 measures per row for each instrument: 4 measures of empty treble clef for vocals, and four measures of active grand staff for the piano. On measure 9, the vocals enter and play along with the piano.

To save space, how do I hide the vocal staves for measures 1-8?

In Finale, it's as simple as selecting the measures you want to hide, click "Staff" then "Hide Empty Staves." Voila, measures 1-8 of vocals are now hidden, only appearing with measure 9. Is this just a missing feature in Notion (like Grand Staff Beaming)?
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Re: How To Hide Empty Staves

Postby thorrild » Fri Jun 14, 2013 8:31 am

Hi Funkybot,

Although it has been improved a bit, the "Hide Resting Staves" feature still doesn't always work as it should. Here is what I've found in a little bit of testing, using a file where the top staff is to be hidden:

- If there is a tempo indication, the staff is hidden, but so is the tempo indication! (rit. and accel. act correctly.) Tempo should be displayed on the top staff containing music. The only way to do this now is to make that staff a "Tempo staff group," which mostly is unsatisfactory.
- If an empty bar has a fermata or other such mark (caesura, breath), it is no longer considered empty.
- If a fermata or other such mark is hidden from view, the staff can be hidden, but only if the "Show Hidden Items" feature is not on.

There may be other markings that cause the top staff to be considered "not empty." Also, this feature used to be a lot worse. Are you using the current version of N4? (I'm using 4.0.325.) As a test, maybe you could redo just those first 8 bars in a newly created file and see if it works better there...

Best wishes,
Thorrild


Best wishes,
Thorrild
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Re: How To Hide Empty Staves

Postby Funkybot » Fri Jun 14, 2013 9:04 am

Unfortunately, I can't figure out why it's not working, but it's not.

Seems like an easy enough feature to code (if all measures in a row of staffs are empty or contain all rests - don't show).
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Re: How To Hide Empty Staves

Postby thorrild » Fri Jun 14, 2013 10:47 am

Funkybot,

It works for me, except for the stuff I noted earlier (tempo goes missing). Here are two screenshots of a test file:

Show resting staves.tiff
Show resting staves.tiff (87.71 KiB) Viewed 9383 times


Hide resting staves.tiff
Hide resting staves.tiff (80.9 KiB) Viewed 9383 times


Why don't you make a test file yourself? Maybe you will eventually get to the element that is giving you trouble...

Best wishes,
Thorrild
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Re: How To Hide Empty Staves

Postby Funkybot » Fri Jun 14, 2013 12:44 pm

Thorrid, first: thanks for your help. Second, I can't see the attachments for some reason (using Chrome).

But, that said, I think I've narrowed down the issue.

1. When creating the score, I wanted to add the guitar chord diagrams above the notation
2. I tried initially to put them over the empty vocal staves
3. It didn't work. Reason: there were no notes/rests in the vocals or whole rests but the chords change roughly every half measure - this meant I could only have chord changes on whole notes, which isn't where the changes are, or I had to put the chord changes under the vocals/lyrics, which makes no sense, or: I had to add a series of half rests to the vocals to allow me to put the chords there
4. I took the latter approach, which worked. So I had the Chord Diagrams over the 2 half rests I added to each measure where there was no vocal.

I now believe that Notion sees the Guitar Chords as belonging to the vocal staff, and therefore won't allow those staves to be hidden because they're not "empty."

The problem here is that Notion doesn't allow me to either 1) put the damn chord diagrams wherever I want, or even more simply 2) default to having the chord diagrams above all staves (which would allow me to associate the guitar chords with the piano part).

A good example that illustrates what I'm trying to do is here:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/18662006/Pian ... rma-Police

I want just a solo piano for the first 8 measures, with guitar chord diagrams on top, then the vocals come in with the guitar chord diagrams remaining on top.
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Re: How To Hide Empty Staves

Postby thorrild » Fri Jun 14, 2013 1:34 pm

Funkybot,

I am using Safari, and sometimes I can see attached screenshots, other times not. I also have Firefox, and the problem exists there too. I have a sneaking feeling it's something with the forum engine, but what do I know...

Your detective work seems to pay off, and I think there is a way to get what you want in your score. You are right, of course, that the guitar chords are attached to the vocal staff, and that's why it won't be hidden. (This would be the case in Finale as well.) But try this:

1. In the first 8 bars, attach guitar chords to the top piano staff wherever you can.
2. When you need a chord where there isn't an entry in the staff, enter some rests of appropriate duration in layer 2 and attach the chord to one of these rests. Then hide the rests from view. If a measure is empty (whole rest in layer 1), you can still add other rests as needed in layer 2 and hide them.

Best,
Thorrild
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Re: How To Hide Empty Staves

Postby Funkybot » Fri Jun 14, 2013 4:23 pm

thorrild wrote:Funkybot,

I am using Safari, and sometimes I can see attached screenshots, other times not. I also have Firefox, and the problem exists there too. I have a sneaking feeling it's something with the forum engine, but what do I know...

Your detective work seems to pay off, and I think there is a way to get what you want in your score. You are right, of course, that the guitar chords are attached to the vocal staff, and that's why it won't be hidden. (This would be the case in Finale as well.) But try this:

1. In the first 8 bars, attach guitar chords to the top piano staff wherever you can.
2. When you need a chord where there isn't an entry in the staff, enter some rests of appropriate duration in layer 2 and attach the chord to one of these rests. Then hide the rests from view. If a measure is empty (whole rest in layer 1), you can still add other rests as needed in layer 2 and hide them.

Best,
Thorrild


I actually had the same idea shortly after my last post, so I'm glad we both think it will work, but I want to thank you again for helping! I'll give it a shot over the weekend and post back as to whether or not it works.
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Re: How To Hide Empty Staves

Postby Funkybot » Fri Jun 14, 2013 8:56 pm

Thorrild, the approach you suggested worked. As you pointed out in your prior post however, the tempo became hidden too. I can live with it, but it's definitely an annoyance.

Have you ever reported the issue directly to Notion support so they can at least get it on a list? I'd think that both Chords and tempo should not prevent staves from being hidden, but should remain after the staves are hidden.
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Re: How To Hide Empty Staves

Postby thorrild » Sat Jun 15, 2013 11:53 am

Funkybot,

I have reported it to tech support, but wil happily do it again.

Best,
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