Problems with keyboard using USB-to-Host

[Noumenae]

Hello Notion forumgoers, I'm a newbie here. Wanted to get some advice on getting my keyboard (it's a Yamaha DGX-650) to work consistently with Notion. I'm also a newbie to the music production scene in general, so I tend to get a little bit overwhelmed when I try to Google for answers. I did a quick search on the forum for my question, but didn't find anything that addressed the particular problem I'm having, though I may have missed it (in which case I apologize).

I've gotten every feature working at one point or another, but it seems like everything only works sometimes. Currently, the only devices I have are my keyboard (as stated before, it's a Yamaha DGX-650, with a triple pedal unit) and my laptop (a cheap HP Pavilion, AMD quad-core 2.5/1.9GHz, 500GB HDD, AMD Radeon 6xxx series graphics, I think the sound is onboard). When I'm working, I plug my keyboard into my laptop via USB and my laptop into my keyboard via a 3.55mm audio cable, and then I plug in my stereo headphones into the keyboard via a 1/4in. converter. For recording via MIDI, I've downloaded the most recent ASIO4ALL driver and have it selected in my preferences (before I downloaded it, I was getting about 70ms of latency, but I managed to get it down to closer to 8-10).

With that out of the way, onto the problem: I plugged everything up earlier today and it was working fine for a short while. I got 30 seconds of a track notated, one voice being a piano voice recorded into Notion via my USB-MIDI Keyboard, using the piano sound in the keyboard. However, after a while, I unplugged my headphones to show my progress to my dad who was in the other room, and it played back fine, but when I plugged my headphones back in, suddenly all I could hear was the piano. I couldn't hear the rest of the voices (all of which are Notion instruments). I tried every combination of unplugging and plugging back in of the cords, each time restarting Notion, to no avail. After a restart, it worked fine for a moment, but started getting buggy again. So, my first question is: Does anybody have any suggestions as to why I'm having problems getting both voices to play at the same time? Could it be a driver problem, or something with my sound card being wonky?

I also have one other problem I would like to address: When exporting to .wav, can I get the audio file to include both the Notion instruments and the MIDI track from the piano? Whenever I try to export, the .wav file only plays the Notion instruments, even if I export while only able to hear the piano during playback. I'm trying to compose a piece (and while I'm an amateur composer, I feel like it's going to come out quite well if I can get everything to work for me properly) for the first time in months, because I've finally gotten over my writer's block, and I'm almost ready to give up on it because I'm running into so many walls. :/ My eventual goal is to produce my music using Cubase, but between the software itself and all of the VSTs I'll have to buy, it's not going to fit in my budget right now (I'm only eighteen, and I haven't even started college yet). I also want to build a desktop for music production sooner or later, and that will probably cost me upwards of $1,000 that I don't have.

I love Notion though, it's been amazing for me up until now. I just can't seem to get the MIDI recording function to work right for me. It's probably just due to my lack of savvy for this sort of stuff, but that's why I'm asking you guys - I'm clueless.

Any help is appreciated - thanks so much in advance!

[Admin]

I am not certain why you are losing connectivity with your MIDI Controller. Try going to File>Preferences>MIDI. Make sure that the keyboard is registering to Notion in this window by clicking on the device that you are using.

Also, from what I understand from this post, it seems that you might be using Notion External MIDI tracks to route to your keyboard so that you can utilize the piano sound of your keyboard. If I am correct about this, then you must route the audio from the keyboard back into your computer somehow (probably through a DAW of some sort), you will never hear that in your exports because Notion isn't hearing it, only you are in the headphones. To do an audio export in Notion, the output of that keyboard that is being used must be set to go through the master output of Notion.

Unfortunately, there is no way to receive audio in Notion because Notion is not an audio recording interface. You must route back to a DAW to get audio input. You can then use Rewire to get Notion to talk to your DAW and bounce the audio from the DAW to your computer, which will in turn, receive all audio output from Notion, the MIDI keyboard and whatever else you might decide to use.

I hope this helps, I might need some clarification on exactly what is happening here.

-Admin

[Noumenae]

Thanks for the reply!

The keyboard shows up fine in my preferences and such. I think I -may- have fixed the connectivity issue by switching USB ports on my computer. I don't know why I hadn't tried it before, but it also fixed the problem I was having of getting lots of static and such while it was plugged in. I'll test it again when I get home to make sure.

Yes, that is what I'm trying to do. I think I understand now that you've explained it. I tried googling for answers and read something along those lines of MIDI having to be routed through an instrument but didn't realize that a DAW would need to be involved. One more thing; will the USB connection be sufficient in communicating the audio from my keyboard to the DAW (Just to make sure my understanding is correct, DAW=digital audio workstation and collectively refers to software such as Cubase, Pro Tools, Audacity, etc. correct?) or will I need to route it some other way? (e.g; via an audio cable?)

While I'm here, could I ask a slightly more general question? Is there a way I can use the speakers of my keyboard as my default audio device so that all sound from my computer also plays through my keyboard? The way I have it rigged up now works fine within Notion, but while Notion is running, all other sounds on my laptop still play through the laptop. (e.g; Facebook notifications, Winamp if I open the audio file to double check levels, etc etc.) It seems to me like Notion is "taking priority?" over other sounds. Could this be related to the fact I'm using ASIO4ALL for Notion?

Thanks again for the detailed response; as an amateur composer I really appreciate the help!

[Surfwhammy]

. . . will the USB connection be sufficient in communicating the audio from my keyboard to the DAW (Just to make sure my understanding is correct, DAW=digital audio workstation and collectively refers to software such as Cubase, Pro Tools, Audacity, etc. correct?) or will I need to route it some other way? (e.g; via an audio cable?)

The USB cable sends MIDI messages, not audio, so you will need to connect the audio output of the keyboard synthesizer to your computer, but since I do everything on the Mac, I am not so certain how you will do this on a Windows computer . . .

Generally, this is done with an external digital audio and MIDI interface like the MOTU 828x/828mk2 Hybrid (a personal favorite) or PreSonus AudioBox 1818VSL, although there are less expensive models that work nicely but have fewer channels and advanced functions . . .

[NOTE: The 828x is the newly release model and it provides support for Thunderbolt, but there is information on the 828mk3 Hybrid at the bottom of the page, with the primary difference being that both support USB, but the 828x supports Thunderbolt, while the 828mk2 Hybrid supports FireWire . . . ]

MOTU 828x/828mk3 Hybrid

AudioBox 1818VSL (PreSonus)

[NOTE: PreSonus has a smaller USB external digital audio interface (but no MIDI) that is approximately $150 (US) at most of the online music stores . . . ]

AudioBox USB (PreSonus)

However, if your computer has a pair of line-level inputs, then you should be able to run the line-level audio outputs of your keyboard synthesizer to the line-level inputs of your computer and the computer will handle digitizing the audio, which is what an external digital audio interface does . . .

MIDI usually is included in high-end units, but it tends to support standard MIDI cables rather than USB. MIDI and audio are separate, but both are used, so it is logical to combine digital support for audio and MIDI in a single unit, and nearly no computers have standard MIDI ports, so when one uses standard MIDI, a digital interface is required . . .

Lots of FUN!

[Noumenae]

Thanks for the info! I knew that the cable only sent MIDI and not audio, but I wasn't sure if the DAW in itself would be capable of converting/digitizing the audio.

I guess this is getting to be a little bit more complicated than I bargained. (Ahh well, I've gotta learn it all at some point, right?) I may just have to give up for now and compose with Notion's piano sound unless I can get it to work through the line-in. Right now, I'm not able to get any sound output to the computer, BUT it might just be the adapter that isn't working (I don't have a proper 1/4 in. to 1/8in. instrument cable). I don't have the money for an external audio interface at this point in time... however, with that being said, I do eventually plan on getting one.

In the case of the external interface, let me ask if my speculation is correct as far as how that would be set up:

Keyboard (USB) -> Computer
Interface (USB) <-> Computer
Keyboard (Analog / 1/4in. cable) -> Interface

So the keyboard would send MIDI information directly to the computer/DAW, then on playback the DAW would send the information back to the keyboard, which would route its audio through the analog out to the interface? Thank you both for all the help!

Ack, one more thing - will there be any drawback to connecting my keyboard to the line-in on my computer? (Latency [I can't imagine routing it this way would make any difference on latency though?], audio artifacts [This is could see being a potential problem], that sort of thing?) Thanks again!

[Surfwhammy]

It takes a while to make sense of all this stuff, but once you understand it you can do nearly everything that is done in music at the dawn of the early-21st century, and I think that the answers to both of your primary questions are found in this reply and the next reply, where the succinct bit of information is that you can do what you want to do, but it will require approximately $100 (US) of stuff, specifically an audio interface and two stereo cords, which is explained in the follow-up reply. This will keep you productively busy for quite a while, during which time you can start saving money to get more stuff . . .

This is a high-level diagram of a professional digital music production system, and it is the system I use here in the sound isolation studio . . .



From a practical perspective, there are two general types of computers, where one type is made by Apple and the other type is made by Dell, HP, Microsoft, and so forth, where the latter computers are designed specifically only to run WIndows, but the former are designed specifically to run Mac OS X, although they also run some of the more popular versions of WIndows and are called "Macs" . . .

Based in part on the historical focus of the Mac on creative applications (graphic design, music, and video), digital music software and hardware tends to work better on the Mac, because the companies that develop this type of software and hardware focused on the Mac long before they wandered into providing similar products for Windows, but there are digital music products that only run on Windows machines, so it really depends . . .

The biggest problem with WIndows machines is that there is no consistency in software and hardware, primarily because until very recently no single company did everything, where the biggest change in this respect occurred when Microsoft released the Surface computer, which is the only machine in the Windows universe where the operating system and computer are designed and built by the same company (specifically, Microsoft), which makes it intriguing and provides a glimpse of the future, which is important because the only way to ensure consistency is to control everything, which is what makes the Mac unique, since Apple controls the hardware and software . . .

Another advantage of Apple computers is that they have all the required stuff (operating system and basic hardware), and it high quality and designed specifically to work together accurately and correctly . . .

A Windows computer can have high quality hardware, but it depends on the manufacturer and whether the consumer knows which types of hardware to get, which can be a bit confusing; and there is the additional problem of having a virtual festival of third-party hardware vendors, each of which develops its own custom drivers and so forth and so on . . .

But while a Mac has all the primary stuff, as can a Windows computer, it does not have the types of ports and interfaces required to work with microphones, electric guitars, keyboard synthesizers, external signal processors, standard MIDI devices, and so forth, which is where the external digital audio and MIDI interface becomes the second hardware component in a complete digital music production system, as shown in the diagram (see above) . . .

To do everything, you need a Digital Audio Workstation (DAW) application; NOTION 4; Reason 7 (Propellerhead Software); a set of virtual instruments like Addictive Drums and Addictive Keys (XLN Audio), Cyclop (Sugar Bytes), Kontakt 5 (Native Instruments), MachFive 3 (MOTU), Twin 2 (FabFilter Software Instruments); a set of software effects for mixing and mastering like T-RackS (IK Multimedia) and some of the effects plug-ins from FabFilter Software Instruments and Wave Arts; a few utility applications for metering and other digital music production related activities; and a set of cords and cables to connect all the hardware, including microphone cords, guitar or synthesizer cords, so forth . . .

But you also need to learn a bunch of stuff, which takes a while but is FUN . . .

THOUGHTS

It helps to have a general concept of what one might call the "big picture", since yet another two key facts are (a) that some of this stuff is a bit expensive and (b) that a good bit of it is sold at stellar discounts every so often, which maps to the vast importance of having a plan for the future, since by having a plan for the future it becomes possible to get the most stuff for the least amount of money . . .

Another practical bit of information is that you do not need all this stuff immediately to be productive . . .

Having a plan for the future is important, because what tends to happen is that people make a lot of small purchases as they learn more about the way everything works, which is fine, except that when you add the small purchases, the total nearly always is significantly greater than the cost of getting a complete digital music production system by following a sensible plan for the future . . .

Some of this stuff takes a few months to learn, which makes it like buying paint when you are building a house, where if you have a lot of money you can buy the paint before you build the walls, but the paint just sits there in a cans until the walls are framed and covered, hence while you can get the paint first, it is more practical to get a hammer, nails, and framing lumber, unless there is a super discount sale on paint, but even if there is a super discount sale on paint, you probably need to know which colors to get . . .

On a related note, some DAW applications include a lot of sampled sounds, which is the case with Logic Pro X (Apple) and Studio One 2.6.1 Producer (PreSonus); and NOTION 4 can use the sampled sounds that come with these DAW application by playing the corresponding DAW instruments via music notation on NOTION 4 External MIDI staves, which is done on the Mac via a "virtual MIDI cable", which is included in Mac OS X as part of the IAC Driver and is specified and managed by the Audio MIDI Setup application in Mac OS X . . .

There are Windows "virtual MIDI cables", as well, but they are third-party products rather than being part of the operating system and supporting applications, as is the case with the Mac . . .

It is important to be able to do ReWire 2 (Propellerhead Software), and on the Mac there are four DAW application that I have tested and verfied, specifically Digital Performer 8 (MOTU), Live 9 (Ableton), Logic Pro X (Apple), and Studio One 2.6 (PreSonus), and there are Windows versions of all of them, except Logic Pro X, which only runs on the Mac, but I have not tested and verified that they do ReWire 2 correctly in Windows, although they should, except that "should" does not always map to reality . . .

~ ~ ~ Continued in the next post ~ ~ ~

[Surfwhammy]

~ ~ ~ Continued from the previous post ~ ~ ~

CABLES, CORDS, AND SIGNALS

For the most part, there are three types of audio signals, where one type is the high-impedance output signals of electric guitars, keyboard synthesizers, and high-impedance microphones; another type is the output signal of low-impedance microphones; and the third type is line-level, which is used to interconnect professional studio signal processors . . .

And there are balanced and unbalanced connecting systems, where for example XLR-style low-impedance microphone cables and connectors are balanced, as are most line-level TRS and TRRS cables and connectors, while high-impedance electric guitar cords are unbalanced, hence are more prone to act as antennae for radio transmissions and other types of noise, where "noise" basically is any type of undesired sound . . .

Electric guitar effects pedals usually have line-level outputs, which makes them handy for connecting to line-level inputs to an external digital audio and MIDI interface, but most external digital audio and MIDI interfaces usually have a few ports that work correctly with electric guitars and have "trim" controls to adjust the sensitivity to such signals, which also is the case with XLR-style ports, since microphones also require different levels of sensitivity to work correctly, and some microphones require phantom power, as well . . .

Most computers have some type of audio input, which at minimum will be monaural, and you can use this audio input to connect the audio output of at least one channel of your keyboard synthesizer, but if there is a stereo audio input for the computer, then you can use it for both channels . . .

Some types of sound cards have audio inputs, and they usually are RCA style connectors, but mini-TRS and mini-TRRS are other possibilities . . .

If you computer has an audio input, then it will handle digitizing the audio signal, but if not the you will need at least an external digital audio interface that handles two channels; and these are not so expensive . . .

You can use headphones to listen to the music, and I like SONY MDR-7506 headhones for this use, since they are reasonably flat or unbiased, if you prefer, which basically maps to not favoring any particular frequency, pitch, or note and is a good characteristic for headphones . . .

If your keyboard synthesizer has line-level outputs, then the Behringer U-Control UCS222 USB interface is an inexpensive option at approximately $30 (US) . . .



U-Control UCS222 USB Interface (Behringer)

Another option, which includes a single monaural instrument input and a single XLR microphone input, as well as a pair of line-level inputs and outputs, and a pair of RCA-style outputs is the Lexicon Alpha USB Recording Studio Interface, which is approximately $60 (US) . . .



Lexicon Alpha USB Recording Studio Interface (Musician's Friend)

And the Alesis iO2 Express Audio Interface adds a second instrument and XLR microphone channel, as well as standard MIDI In and MIDI Out for approximately $80 (US), which at present is on sale at an additional discount . . .



Alesis iO2 Express Audio Interface (Musician's Friend)

All these USB audio interfaces include software, and the Lexicon Alpha USB Recording Studio Interface includes Steinberg Cubase LE recording/editing software and other software, as does the Alesis iO2 Express Audio Interface, which makes it particularly attractive for your current digital music production goals, since the Alesis iO2 Express Audio Interface has two instrument input channels that also serve as line-level inputs, and it has XLR inputs and standard MIDI In an MIDI Out . . .

[NOTE: I am not certain whether Cubase LE runs in 64-bit mode and does ReWire 2, but there is an upgrade option from Cubase LE 6/7 to Cubase 7.5 Essentials for $50 (US), and Cubase 7.5 Essentials supports 64-bits and ReWire 2 . . . ]

Of these three, I like the Alesis iO2 Express Audio Interface best, because it has two instrument inputs and standard MIDI In and MIDI Out, as well as two XLR microphone inputs; and the instrument inputs also function as line-level inputs, so it covers everything . . .

Summarizing, the Alesis iO2 Express Audio Interface costs approximately $80 (US), and to connect to it you will need a 1/4" TRS stereo cord to a pair of 1/4" TS cords "splitter", which costs from $3 to $20 (US) depending on the length and style. If you want to run all your computer audio through the Yamaha DGX-650 speakers, then you will need a similar type of cord (see below), which costs approximately the same. I generally get longer cords and cables if it does not cost a lot more, since it makes it easier to reposition equipment . . .


1/4" TRS to 1/4" TS Splitter Cord

Lots of FUN!

P. S. I read the Yamaha DGX-650 User Guide and the unit has a stereo audio output port, which uses a 1/4" TRS connector, so you will need a 1/4" TRS splitter to get it two separate channels to the audio interface, and this makes the Alesis iO2 Express Audio Interface the best option, and when using the stereo audio output of the Yamaha DGX-650 this way, you will need to switch its signal level from headphones to instrument level, which is explained on page 55 of the user guide . . .

There also is an AUX In port, which takes a 1/8" mini-TRS stereo input, and if your computer has a stereo output connector, then I think you can use the Yamaha DGX-650 as a studio monitor system to hear everything output by the computer as well as whatever you play on the keyboard, itself, although I am not certain about this, but if it works, it will require a different type of cord depending on the stereo output connectors of your computer . . .

If I understand the information in the Yamaha DGX-650 User Guide for the AUX In and your Windows computer has a stereo headphone jack, then you can get a cord with the correct stereo connector for the headphone jack and an 1/8" mini-TRS stereo connector for the other end, and this will get the audio output by your computer to the Yamaha DGX-650, where the key is to adjust the volume levels appropriately and to read the Yamaha DGX-750 User Guide, since it has more detailed information on what you need to do to use the AUX In correctly . . .

However, if your Windows computer does not have a built-in stereo output, you can use the Alesis iO2 Express Audio Interface for this purpose, at least for digital music production and perhaps for everything, where the only uncertainty is that I do not have a Windows machine, hence cannot test and verify much of anything regarding Windows, but when I am using the MOTU 828mk3 Hybrid with the Mac Pro here in the sound isolation studio, everything is output to the MOTU 828mk3 Hybrid, including all the sounds and audio generated by the Mac Pro for web stuff and so forth, so if I watch a YouTube video or Amazon Prime movie, the sound goes from the Mac Pro to the MOTU 828mk3 Hybrid and then to the calibrated full-range studio monitor system or headphones, which should be the way the Alesis iO2 Express Audio Interface outputs work . . .

You can register at the Yamaha website and all the various manuals and downloads for the Yamaha DGX-650 will be available, which tends to be easier than reading printed manuals, plus there are updates for Windows drivers and so forth, which is fabulous . . .

DGX-650 Documentation and Downloads (Yamaha Support)

Fabulous!

[Noumenae]

Oh, man. Wow. Thank you so much. I don't even know where to begin. xD

I have a much better understanding of where I'm at now and where I need to be for what I want to be able to do in the [relatively] immediate future, and a much better outlook on the future. Thank you SO much for your help. I am definitely bookmarking this thread because I am sure I'll be needing to come back to it sooner or later. I've been trying to read up online through conversations between people who are experienced with this stuff, but it's just so hard to understand when I haven't been acquainted with all of the systems and terms that are always being thrown around

So thanks, both of you who helped! I'm going to see if I can't get another paycheck in before the sale on that Alesi ends. *Crosses fingers* If not, I'll just wait on it and continue the way I have been going, just using Notion until I can get something worked out.

EDIT: I can't seem to find anything that specifies that it is TRRS to dual TRS... what separates TRRS from TRS from TS?

[Surfwhammy]

. . . what separates TRRS from TRS from TS?

It is a bit confusing, and I used the wrong names for the "splitter" in my previous post, but I edited it to show the correct names . . .

T = Tip
R = Ring
S = Sleeve

Phone Connectors (wikipedia)

Lots of FUN! :)

[Noumenae]

Ohhh, okayy! xD Thanks! :3 I did find a TRS to dual TS, and I was going to ask if that was what I needed but I wasn't sure