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NOTION 4 forgets to switch channels?

Share Custom Rules for NOTION3 and NOTIONSLE

NOTION 4 forgets to switch channels?

Postby Leosc » Sat Feb 23, 2013 4:15 pm

Hey guys - I think I found a bug with Notion 4. I've made a little rules set for the Kontakt 5 orchestral library, and it looks like this:

Code: Select all
<?xml version="2.0" ?>
   <rule-set version="1">

      <dynamic-map id="kont">
         <!-- You can assign your own dynamic values here. 0-127 MIDI values. -->
         <dynamic dynamic="pppp" value="0" />
         <dynamic dynamic="ppp"  value="15" />
         <dynamic dynamic="pp"   value="33" />
         <dynamic dynamic="p"    value="47" />
         <dynamic dynamic="mp"   value="58" />
         <dynamic dynamic="mf"   value="70" />
         <dynamic dynamic="f"    value="95" />
         <dynamic dynamic="ff"     value="105" />
         <dynamic dynamic="fff"    value="116" />
         <dynamic dynamic="ffff" value="127" />
      </dynamic-map>

      <plugin id="1315524405">

         <setup>
            <velocity-map id="kont" />
            <hairpin-map id="kont" />
            <hairpin-cc value="1" />
         </setup>
         
         
         <rule>
         <if technique="norm" />
         <channel-change channel="1"/>
         </rule>
         
         <rule>
            <if articulation="staccato"/>
            <channel-change channel="2"/>
         </rule>
         
         <rule>
         <if technique="trem" />
         <channel-change channel="3"/>
         </rule>
         
         <rule>
         <if technique="fp"/>
         <channel-change channel="4"/>
         </rule>
         
         <rule>
         <if technique="sf"/>
         <channel-change channel="5"/>
         </rule>
         
         <rule>
         <if technique="pizz" />
         <channel-change channel="6"/>
         </rule>
         
   </plugin>

</rule-set>


As you've probably figured out, it's for switching between the articulations in the VSL Legacy folder (modwheel controlled). Basically, the instruments are distributed along these channels:

1 - Sustain, 2 - Staccato, 3 - Tremolo, 4 - Fortepiano, 5 - Sforzando, 6 - Pizzicato.

So if I add tremolo strokes to a note, Notion changes to channel 3 - but it sends the CC1 data over channel 1! That way it's impossible to make smooth dynamics transitions with the hairpins. The only fix I've found for this is to manually assign channel 3 via Shift+I.

Any insights?
Leosc
 
Posts: 11
Joined: Fri Jul 27, 2012 5:35 pm

Re: NOTION 4 forgets to switch channels?

Postby dgriffee » Fri Mar 01, 2013 11:34 am

same problem here, verified with extensive testing. Any rule that changes midi channels always still transmits all the CC data on the "default" midi channel 1 only. Note data gets transmitted on the assigned channel while CC data is transmitted on the WRONG channel. No good at all.

It must be a missing bit of logic the programmers forgot to put in the Notion program, because ONLY if you manually go "shift-I" and assign changing midi channels anywhere in a part via gui mouse clicking, that works properly and ONLY in that case does all the CC data get transmitted on the assigned channel. Yet this program logic is apparently NOT in the rules interpreter code, because the "change midi channel" rules instruction does NOT subsequently transmit CC data on the assigned channel.

The upshot of this bug is that channel-switching rules can not be used, it just does not work. The CC data is absolutely just as important as the notes, "no CC" means "not working". This leaves us limited to only using keyswitching rules, which can not be applied to most VSTi plugins.

Sure there are some very good keyswitching instrument patches in some libraries, but most of the biggest and best are not so. (I suppose someone will challenge that last statement, but it is really besides the point, which is simply that a vitally important fundamental feature in Notion still does not work and it really is quite necessary that it should work.)
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Re: NOTION 4 forgets to switch channels?

Postby Leosc » Sat Mar 02, 2013 4:59 pm

Thanks for your extensive reply, dgriffee - and may I add, congratulations on 100 posts.

I hope this'll be fixed in one of the next updates.
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Posts: 11
Joined: Fri Jul 27, 2012 5:35 pm

Re: NOTION 4 forgets to switch channels?

Postby wcreed51 » Sat Mar 02, 2013 5:59 pm

In Kontakt, can you set articulations up in Banks and use program changes as a work around?
Bill Reed
Notion 4, Sibelius 7.5, Finale 2011/14, Overture 4, Cubase 7.5
Win8 x64, 32GB RAM
M-Audio ProFire 2626
Kontakt, VSL VI Pro, VE Pro, EWQL Orch, Choirs and Pianos
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Re: NOTION 4 forgets to switch channels?

Postby dcd111 » Mon Mar 11, 2013 3:44 pm

dgriffee wrote:same problem here, verified with extensive testing. Any rule that changes midi channels always still transmits all the CC data on the "default" midi channel 1 only. Note data gets transmitted on the assigned channel while CC data is transmitted on the WRONG channel. No good at all.
...

I have tried to bring this to Notion's attention repeatedly, both here in the forum and in emails to tech support, when I bought Notion 3 and then again when I upgraded to Notion 4. Hopefully Notion will prove me wrong, but to me it doesn't seem like they take this problem seriously. I'm not just saying that because they haven't fixed it yet; there are a lot of problems that are not fixed but we know from their forum posts they are aware of them and are working on them. I mean that based on Notion's responses I'm not sure they understand the problem or think it is worth the effort to correct. Which is surprising to me because it isn't just a custom rules issue, it also affects the integrated plugin rulesets, like Miroslav, that use MIDI channel switching for different articulations.

wcreed51 wrote:In Kontakt, can you set articulations up in Banks and use program changes as a work around?

For Kontakt-based instruments, I have tried the instrument bank approach, but many of the instruments I use have tabbed settings within a GUI, which you can't access for instruments in an instrument bank (something I wish Native Instruments would have addressed). I think it is possible to load a GUI-based instrument outside of an instrument bank, adjust the settings, save the modified instrument, and then load the modified instrument in an instrument bank. But that would get tedious quickly if you need to tweak settings from time to time.

I was working on a Kontakt Multiscript-based solution, but I haven't had time to really get anywhere with it. A few solutions I was considering: take the CC data from one channel and repeat it over several additional selected channels (which would be the most fool-proof, but it seems like it has the potential to slow things down once there are a lot of Kontakt instruments running simultaneously in Notion); redirect CC data to whatever channel has received the latest note-on command; or implement a system of keyswitches in the Notion rules to identify when the MIDI channel has changed, which the multiscript would detect and use to redirect CC data.

None of these is likely to be 100% satisfactory.
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Re: NOTION 4 forgets to switch channels?

Postby wcreed51 » Mon Mar 11, 2013 5:40 pm

The full EWQL instruments use channel switching also...
Bill Reed
Notion 4, Sibelius 7.5, Finale 2011/14, Overture 4, Cubase 7.5
Win8 x64, 32GB RAM
M-Audio ProFire 2626
Kontakt, VSL VI Pro, VE Pro, EWQL Orch, Choirs and Pianos
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Re: NOTION 4 forgets to switch channels?

Postby Admin » Wed Apr 10, 2013 9:35 am

I just replied to a post with the same topic in it yesterday. Notion does seem to transmit CC data only over channel 1 currently. I have submitted a ticket and I am hoping for a resolution to this matter soon.

-Admin
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Re: NOTION 4 forgets to switch channels?

Postby Forever Mourning » Fri Jan 03, 2014 3:32 am

Wow, this is a serious downfall!! I assume it hasn't been fixed yet? I'm using a lot of EWQL products, and there is no way to duplicate CC data to all channels is there? I'm using Vienna Ensemble Pro 5, I wonder if there is a way to duplicate midi cc that way. Yikes, that would be a lot of data moving around :(
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Re: NOTION 4 forgets to switch channels?

Postby dcd111 » Mon Jan 06, 2014 10:40 am

I agree it is a significant bug that has taken far too long to recognize and correct, but note that it only comes up in specific circumstances. It should only effect crescendos and decrescendos that occur over a sustained note. Notion does send the CC#11 data (or CC#7, whatever applies here) to the correct channel at the beginning of each note; it's the CC volume/expression data that increases or decreases while a note is playing that will not follow a MIDI channel switch triggered by a rule. So if you duplicate or redirect the data, you only have to do it for MIDI channels that are loaded with articulations appropriate for sustained notes (you can ignore staccatos, for example).

I am not familiar with EWQL, so I'm probably wrong, but a quick reading around seems to indicate you can use keyswitches instead of MIDI channels to switch articulations in PLAY. Is that possible? That would eliminate the effects of this bug, since it only occurs when MIDI channels are switched by rule for different articulations, Notion sends the CC data to any MIDI channel assigned to a particular staff/voice without difficulty. It would probably require re-writing or revising the Notion plugin rules for EWQL, though, and you probably wouldn't be able to use the associated Notion presets. The rules changes shouldn't be too difficult, I believe it would largely be a matter of searching and replacing channel change commands in the .prules file with equivalent keyswitch commands.
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Re: NOTION 4 forgets to switch channels?

Postby Forever Mourning » Wed Jun 04, 2014 11:04 pm

Thanks for your reply dcd111, although I'm using Hollywood Strings, Winds, and Brass (and many others) and keyswitch patches are few and far in between AND they don't touch the quality of the non-keyswitch patches. So I have no choice in the matter. Obviously there is not an easy solution to this problem, otherwise they would have fixed this issue by now. If only an Instrument Change would allow for Omni like all the standardized midi programs out there! Then you could just run a separate staff to control all of the cc data.

I wonder if we started to email them every week, would they take this problem (us) seriously then? :) I don't ask for much, but this problem is slowing my scoring process down immensely!!! :(
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