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Extension Woodwind bundle

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Extension Woodwind bundle

Postby wilhoit » Tue Jun 10, 2014 7:00 pm

Reverted from Oboe Duo to the bundled Oboe, as the Duo sounds like it was recorded in a 250-gallon propane tank and then processed (lightly) through a ring modulator. Okay, so maybe that's just me and I wasn't going to make a big issue out of it.

Then I come to find that the bottom three notes of the Bassoon Duo are the wrong pitches! Notated B-flat sounds B-natural. Notated B-natural sounds C. Notated C sounds C-sharp. Notated C-sharp also sounds C-sharp, but it is a different sample. From there on up it is right. But this seems like an awfully basic thing not to have caught before release...?

Of course there is no point in even asking for a refund on software, but I am not entirely happy right now.

?
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Re: Extension Woodwind bundle

Postby Johnny » Tue Jun 10, 2014 7:25 pm

wilhoit wrote:Then I come to find that the bottom three notes of the Bassoon Duo are the wrong pitches! ?


The "Bassoon Duo" sounds are the correct pitch on my Windows version of N4.

,Johnny

P.s. If you don't like the "Bundled Sounds" ask yourself_
_ "Where can I get a better application with samples for only $49.?
Then consider getting some other sounds and create your own custom rules files. Works good for me.

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Re: Extension Woodwind bundle

Postby wilhoit » Tue Jun 10, 2014 8:12 pm

Has anyone else had a problem like this and found a solution, explanation, or workaround?
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Re: Extension Woodwind bundle

Postby wilhoit » Sat Jun 14, 2014 9:53 pm

Okay, this is driving me absolutely nuts.

The problem is confined to the three lowest pitches on one patch (Bassoon Duo from the woodwind extensions). If I change the patch to the bundled Bassoon, the problem goes away.

When I click on the notes, they are right. When I play them back, they are wrong.

I created a test file with only one staff, copied (Control-C/Control-V) a passage containing the bad notes into it, and the problem does not occur; but it occurs in every file that I imported via MusicXML from Sibelius (7.5). I have inspected the MusicXML files themselves and find nothing suggestive.

I do have a workaround, albeit one that has to be round-tripped every time I want to make a new audio rendering or a new PDF. I can alter the notes for playback and then go back and remove the accidentals for printing. I can even double-flat the B-flats -- this should not be possible, it should translate into a note number that is out of range for the Bassoon. It won't click-play an A-natural -- as well it shouldn't. It will click-play a B-double-flat -- at the correct pitch, one octave above the lowest key on the piano (so the note is included in the samples!). And on playback, all the B-double-flats become B-flats, B-flats become B-naturals, C-flats become C-naturals, and C-naturals become C-sharps.

Without boasting (for it is not a boast), I have decades of experience tracking down and fixing the absolute worst kinds of software bugs, but I can't imagine what is going on here. Any insight, similar experiences, or wild hunches would be welcome.

Thanks,
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Re: Extension Woodwind bundle

Postby Johnny » Sat Jun 14, 2014 10:27 pm

May seem like a redundant question. Are you using the current version that being Notion 4.0.329 ?

,Johnny

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Re: Extension Woodwind bundle

Postby Surfwhammy » Sun Jun 15, 2014 2:54 am

wilhoit wrote:Any insight, similar experiences, or wild hunches would be welcome.


I like bassoon, oboe, and French horn (brass, but so what), because they have interesting textures, but in the bass register my primary focus is on acoustic bass and electric bass, since I play both of them, although primarily electric bass; so I am replying because this involves bass and low frequencies, not that I know anything about bassoon other than I like its textures . . .

These are a few observations and bits of information that might be relevant in one way or another:

(1) FREQUENCY PERCEPTION: The perception of frequency--called "pitch"--is a fascinating phenomenon, and it is considerably more complex than most folks imagine, especially with respect to being influenced by auditory illusions, where one of the most troublesome auditory illusions affecting the perception of low frequencies is the "Missing Fundamental" auditory illusion . . .

Missing Fundamental Auditory Illusion (Wikipedia)

An intriguing hypothesis regarding the "Missing Fundamental" auditory illusion suggests that there are two general types of listeners or "hearers" on this planet, (a) fundamental tone hearers and (b) overtone hearers . . .

This hypothesis springs from research done approximately 10 years ago at Heidelberg University in Germany, and the researchers provided a quick test that can be used to determine whether someone is a fundamental tone hearer or an overtone hearer . . .

[NOTE: The quick test for determining hearing type is found at the following link. The sounds are in a FLAC format audio file, so you need a player that plays FLAC format audio files; and the test is easier when you listen with headphones, but it also works when you listen with loudspeaker units . . . ]

How do you hear tones? (Hydrogenaudio FORUM)

It took me a while to make sense of the technical language, and at first my understanding was exactly the opposite, but it eventually made sense; and the way it works is that fundamental tone hearers are easily tricked by the "Missing Fundamental" auditory illusion, since they synthesize the missing fundamental and essentially "fill in the blanks", which is a problem when the focus shifts to the role of producer, since for all practical purposes fundamental tone hearers cannot trust their ears unless everything is verified with meters and other measuring devices commonly used in acoustic physics . . .

[NOTE: I am a fundamental tone hearer, which is excellent, but it requires a calibrated full-range studio monitor system, which actually is a requirement for everyone, really . . . ]

There is a solution, however, and the solution is to have a calibrated full-range studio monitor system and a nice set of metering equipment (hardware and software), since (a) correctly adjusted and maintained meters and measuring devices, including metering and measuring software, do not have personal beliefs and opinions and (b) you can trust a calibrated full-range studio monitor system, where I specifically define this to be a studio monitor system that has a frequency range running from 10-Hz to 20,000-Hz with a flat equal loudness curve at 85 dB SPL, with 85 dB SPL being the ideal sound pressure level for final mixing and mastering . . .

[NOTE: Since the subsonic and deep bass is present and heard accurately with a calibrated full-range studio monitor system, you can trust your ears, because everything is present. You need to hear it to produce and mix it correctly. Headphones are convenient some of the time, but for final mixing and mastering it is important to use a calibrated full-range studio monitor system. Also, note that the frequency range of normal human hearing generally is defined to be 20-Hz to 20,000-Hz, but I extend it downward to 10-Hz, since there is subsonic material in most sampled sound libraries and while subsonic audio is tactile rather than audio for most people, it is a key aspect of certain modern music genres, where among other things it serves as a tactile early warning system, due to the facts (a) that the wavelength of a 10-Hz sine wave is approximately 113 feet; (b) that these sound waves travel at approximately 1,125 feet per second at sea level; (c) that these waves travel through virtually everything easily; and (d) that this is approximately 25 feet per second faster than a vehicle traveling at 60 miles per hour, all of which is a particularly abstruse way of explaining the fact that you feel the stampeding herd of elephants at least a few seconds before they appear . . . ]

(2) REFERENCE TUNING PITCH: The default reference tuning pitch in NOTION 4 is not 440-Hz (standard "Concert A" in the US). If your focus is on popular music, then it is best to set the reference tuning pitch in NOTION 4 to 440-Hz, which is done on the "General" tab of NOTION 4 "Preferences" via the "Global tuning" slider . . .

Image

(3) CHROMATIC SAMPLING: There are different strategies used in sampled sound libraries, but the most complete strategy involves sampling every note in every articulation, dynamic, playing style, and so forth and so on, where the key bit of information is that the more extensive the sampling strategy the most expensive the sample sound library . . .

It is more common for a sample sound library to provide samples for some of the notes in various articulations, dynamics, and playing styles but not all of them; and when this happens some of the notes are computed using various types of logarithmic extrapolation and other techniques, where as an example if C4 ("Middle C" in standard scientific pitch notation) and D4 are sampled but C#4 is not sampled, then the sound for a C#4 note will be computed by the virtual instrument engine, using either C4 or D as the basis, which generally works nicely unless there is a time-based or motion-based component like tremolo or vibrato, in which case if the lower frequency sample is used and increased in speed, then its tremolo or vibrato rate also increases, as is the case if D is used, except that instead of the tremolo or vibrato rate increasing, it decreases, where the general rule is that if tremolo or vibrato can be applied later via an effects plug-in, this results in better consistency, noting that I am using "tremolo" and "vibrato" the way they are used in the electric guitar universe, although no matter how the terms are used, arbitrarily decreasing or increasing via an algorithm can be troublesome . . .

[NOTE: This might provide a clue to the existence of a note which does not exist and cannot be played on a bassoon, where instead of being a real note, it is a computed note . . . ]

(4) FREQUENCY IS LOGARITHMIC: Frequency is logarithmic in music, and an octave spans 1,200 cents, where each semitone maps to 100 cents. The difference in the root frequencies of adjacent notes in the bass register or region is very small, where for example at standard tuning ("Concert A" = 440-Hz), (a) the low-pitch "A" string of an electric bass or acoustic bass is 55-Hz and (b) the low-pitch "E" string of an electric bass or acoustic bass is 41.203-Hz . . .

Yet, there are six notes {E1, F1, F#1, G1, G#1, A1} when one excludes the possibility of flats and sharps being different as well as multiple, which this basically is what I call the "grand piano perspective", in the sense that no matter how many different names one concocts for "Middle C", they all map to the same single key on a standard grand piano . . .

Overall, this maps to what in the soprano register would be a tiny variation instead being a significant variation in the bass register; and when combined with some of the other aspects of auditory perception and sampled sound strategies in the digital universe, this can be a problem or at least something to consider in the grand scheme of everything . . .

(5) NOTION 4 SOUNDS: I think that the NOTION 4 Bundled sounds are chromatically sampled, as are the various Expansion Sound collections . . .

(6) CORRECTIONS TO NOTION 4 SOUNDS: As best as I can recall, there have been some fixes for various problems with a few of the NOTION 4 sampled sounds (Bundled and Expansion Sound collections) . . .

~ ~ ~ Continued in the next post ~ ~ ~
Last edited by Surfwhammy on Sun Jun 15, 2014 9:14 am, edited 7 times in total.
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Re: Extension Woodwind bundle

Postby Surfwhammy » Sun Jun 15, 2014 3:03 am

~ ~ ~ Continued from the previous post ~ ~ ~

THOUGHTS

There are different perspectives regarding whether to use NOTION 4 Bundled sounds and Expansion Sound collections, which is fine with me . . .

If I were using NOTION 4 to provide real-time accompaniment for a musical group or choir, then I would use the NOTION 4 Bundled sounds and Expansion Sound collections exclusively, and I would not use any VST effects plug-ins in the NOTION 4 Mixer, with the reason being to avoid any possibility of having problems during a real-time performance . . .

On the other hand, when I am creating songs for my various pretend musical groups I nearly always use third-party VSTi virtual instruments--specifically Addictive Drums and Addictive Keys (XLN Audio), Cyclop (Sugar Bytes), Kontakt 4 (Native Instruments), MachFive 3 (MOTU), Twin 2 and Volcano (FabFilter Software Instruments); and I use several specialized sample sound libraries for Kontakt 5, primarily from Bolder Sounds, where in particular I like their crystal glasses and hand balls . . .

Regarding differences in sampled sound libraries, this YouTube video shows the Fast Fourier Transform (FFT) analyses for the NOTION 4 Upright Bass and Electric Bass and the MachFive 3 Jazz Bass and Upright Bass, where for example you can see that there is more subsonic audio in the MachFive 3 samples, which also is the case for upper midrange . . .

[NOTE: I removed the Reverb unit from the NOTION 4 Mixer and pegged the volume slider for all four instruments to 0 dB. There is no other signal processing beyond what the Screenflow (Telestream) audio and video capture software and YouTube do . . . ]

N4 MF3 Basses FFT Analysis ~ YouTube music video


SUMMARY

You might have discovered a gnarly bug, in which case reporting it to the Notion Music folks will be helpful; and until it is fixed you will need to devise a suitable workaround . . .

However, unless you are listening to the audio played through a calibrated full-range studio monitor system, (a) there is no verified reference and (b) there is no telling what you are hearing . . .

Headphones are convenient, but they are different from listening to audio played through a calibrated full-range studio monitor system . . .

Other than the approximately $20,000 (US) recently released JBL Pro M2 Master Reference Monitor System or a custom studio monitor system featuring an Altec A-7 "Voice of the Theater" or similar two-way loudspeaker units, at the dawn of the early-21st century commercial-off-the-shelf (COTS) studio monitor systems require two subwoofers, since none of them is full-range otherwise . . .

M2 Master Reference Monitor (JBL Pro)

I use a pair of Kustom KCP-15 self-powered 15" two-way PA loudspeaker units augmented with a pair of Kustom PA-112S self-powered 12" subwoofers, and I push the frequency range into the subsonic region with a Behringer DEQ 2496 UltraDrive Pro, although it is possible to adjust the Kustom units "by ear" with help from a NADY DCM-1 Digital SPL Meter and a good reference song like the single version of "Billie Jean" (Michael Jackson), at least until you can afford to add the Behringer unit and then to enhance it with the ARC System 2 (IK Multimedia) and a Behringer DCX 2496 UltraDrive Pro Loudspeaker Management Processor . . .

[NOTE: Based on current pricing at Musician's Friend in the US, which includes a discount promotion for June 2014, two Kustom KCP-15 units and two Kustom PA-112s subwoofers cost $700 (US), which is the lowest total it has been in a while, due to the lowered discount price of the single Kustom KCP-15 units . . . ]

PreSonus has a system that I like, which specifically is a pair of Sceptre S8 self-powered two-way loudspeaker units and a pair of T10 Tremblor self-powered subwoofer units, but it costs approximately three times as much as the Kustom units . . .

The Kustom units work, because they are used in sound reinforcement, hence are used primarily by folks who do sound reinforcement, none of whom care about anything other than the fundamental rules of acoustic physics, which maps to not being influenced easily by marketing blurbs and popular entertainer endorsements . . .

The important thing to remember about the Kustom units is that they are capable of producing sufficient sound levels for a small nightclub, so if your isolation studio is 6 feet wide by 7 feet high and 12 feet long, as is the case here in the sound isolation studio, then you want to ensure that the volume controls are no higher than 2 or 3 on a scale running from 0 to 10 . . .

In other words, until you understand how everything works with respect to volume levels, you need to wear OSHA-approved ear protectors like the ones that airport workers wear on the runway, and you need to use the NADY DSM-1 Digital SPL Meter to determine when the complete system (computer, external audio and MIDI interface, outboard signal processors, and Kustom loudspeaker and subwoofer units) are set so that 85 dB SPL is the maximum volume when measured with a dBA weighting. The dBC weighted measurement will be a bit higher, but this is not a problem, so long is it is approximately 90 dB SPL, which according to OSHA is the maximum safe listening level for approximately 8 hours, noting that the EPA recommended safe listening levels are nonsense . . .

[NOTE: The key bit of information is provided in "Table G-16: Permissible Noise Exposures" . . . ]

Standard 1910-95: Occupational Noise Exposure (OSHA)

Lots of FUN! :D
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Re: Extension Woodwind bundle

Postby Surfwhammy » Sun Jun 15, 2014 7:17 am

wilhoit wrote:I created a test file with only one staff, copied (Control-C/Control-V) a passage containing the bad notes into it, and the problem does not occur; but it occurs in every file that I imported via MusicXML from Sibelius (7.5). I have inspected the MusicXML files themselves and find nothing suggestive.


This is intriguing . . .


If I understand what you wrote, then the answer to both of these questions is "True":

(1) If you start with an empty NOTION 4 score and create a Bassoon or Bassoon Duo staff, followed by inputting a phrase containing the three lowest notes for a Bassoon, then the problem does not occur?

(2) But if you start by importing into NOITION 4 a MusicXML file exported by Sibelius 7.5, then the problem occurs consistently when there is a Bassoon staff containing the three lowest notes?

Let me know if I am reading it correctly . . .

EXPERIMENT #1: Select the Bassoon or Bassoon Duo staff and a section where the bad notes occur, and then export it from NOTION 4 as MIDI, followed by examining the MIDI file ("*.mid") to see how the notes map to MIDI . . .

[NOTE: If you are on the Mac, then MidiKit is nice for examining the detailed MIDI information in a MIDI file. It is available in the Mac App Store, as well . . . ]

MidiKit (Mixage Software - Bruno Di Gleria)

SURPRISING THOUGHTS ON A1

I checked the NOTION 4 instruments list file ("InstrumentList4.tpk"), and both the Bassoon and the Bassoon Duo are defined for their lowest notes to be "33", which maps to "A1" (55-Hz) in standard scientific pitch notation, hence while this might be non-standard, it is expected that the Bassoon and Bassoon Duo in NOTION 4 will play A1, no matter how it is notated . . .

[NOTE: You can verify this by using the virtual piano keyboard in NOTION 4, where you click on the Bassoon or Bassoon Duo staff and then press A1 key on the virtual piano keyboard . . . ]

According to the Wikipedia information for Bassoon, it is possible to play A1 if one uses a special extension or apparently the end bell of an English Horn or Clarinet, which among other aspect is one of the reasons I like Bassoon players (a particularly odd bunch of folks, really); but even more surprising to me is that Richard Wagner apparently composed specifically for Bassoons with this special extension, which then led to the device called the "Wagner Bell", which also provides special key mechanisms for the notes that cannot be played otherwise . . .

Also, using certain fingerings, notes may be produced on the instrument that sound lower pitches than the actual range of the instrument. These "impossible notes" tend to sound very gravelly and out of tune, but technically sound below the low B♭. Alternatively, lower notes can be produced by inserting a small paper or rubber tube into the end of the bell, which converts the lower B♭ into a lower note such as an A natural; this lowers the pitch of the instrument, but has the positive effect of bringing the lowest register (which is typically quite sharp) into tune.

[SOURCE: Bassoon ~ Extended Techniques (Wikipedia) ]


Low A on Bassoon ~ YouTube music video

Contrabass Saxophone ~ YouTube music video

[NOTE: If you play electric guitar and cannot avoid being in a musical group with a horn section, then learn Barre chords, and no matter which key the horn players decide is "best" in their daily team meeting where they devise new ways to annoy you, it does not matter, because you can play songs in any key when you know Barre chords . . . :P ]

PUZZLING THOUGHTS ON SOUND FILES

I examined the sound file for the Bassoon ("Bassoon.prox"), and there were a few things that did not make sense immediately, but this might not be a problem, since at present I have not compared it to another NOTION 4 sound file . . .

Code: Select all
base-pitch='D2' lower-pitch='A1' upper-pitch='Eb2'


[NOTE: There is a good bit of information in XML format in the sound files ("*.prox"), but making sense of it requires examining a few more of them to determine whether something which looks odd actually is a consistent, hence most likely correct, pattern . . . ]

The general pattern is that there are audio clips in the file, and at the end of the file there is an XML section that is an index; but the bulk of the file is binary, hence not easily readable, and there other aspects that might apply, where for example the human readable index might be a guide to the start of audio clips, but within each audio clip there might be a more detailed index which only makes sense if you understand the encoding strategy . . .

Some items have the same note for "base-pitch", "lower-pitch", and "upper-pitch", which in some respects is just a odd . . .

Without knowing the complete file format--which no doubt is proprietary--guessing is interesting, but without doing a lot of experiments I see no easy way to reverse engineer it, although I think it can be reverse engineered if one has a lot of time with nothing better to do . . .

This is all the information I have about it, at present . . .

Lots of FUN! :)
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Re: Extension Woodwind bundle

Postby thorrild » Sun Jun 15, 2014 9:18 am

wilhoit wrote:Has anyone else had a problem like this and found a solution, explanation, or workaround?

Hi wilholt,

I haven't had the energy to plow through surfwhammy's posts, but since he often misses the point, here is the answer and a workaround:

There is a bug in the Bassoon Duo sample: The bottom notes play a half step too high only when the dynamic is between mp and p. The attached file illustrates the problem, for those who have bought the expansion sound. I reported the bug some months ago and it has been logged but not fixed yet. I don't know when Notion plans to update/correct their sample library, but when they do, it'll be fixed, I assume.

If you want to add your voice to the chorus, send an email describing the bug to Brian in tech support. His address is: support@notionmusic.com

The workaround: If a Bassoon Duo passage must be marked mp or p, double-click on the dynamic and change its playback volume: On an mp, type +1 (making it play mf) — on a p, type -1 (making it play pp). Unfortunately, this doesn't work if the mismapped pitches occur over a hairpin going from, say, ff to ppp.

With best wishes,
Thorrild

Bsn duo pitches.notion
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Re: Extension Woodwind bundle

Postby wilhoit » Sun Jun 15, 2014 9:27 am

I appreciate your long and excellent disquisition on pitch perception, a topic that is near and dear to me. I worked with David Butler at Ohio State on pitch perception back in the 1980s. My own pitch perception is notoriously (at least among my friends) excellent and while it is possible for pitch perception to be affected by all of the things you enumerate, I beg to assure you that I am not going to mistake a major seventh or a minor ninth for an octave in an A/B comparison.

The intriguing point about this, from the standpoint of Notion's implementation, is that if I mouse-click on a Bassoon Duo bottom B-flat, I get one thing; then if I immediately play it back with the spacebar and the moving green cursor (using all the same equipment), I get something else.

Also, while it is good to know that the patch samples include bottom A, a notated bottom A (three leger lines) will not click-play, but a B-double-flat will. Try it yourself. Things that make you go, hmmm....

And to your point about chromatic sampling: in a score with the problem, the notated scale Bb, B, C, C# plays back as B, C, C#, different C# -- the two C#s are the same pitch but distinctly not the same sample.

I'll look at the MIDI export and also do a MusicXML export from Notion. I would expect both of these to reflect the notated pitches exclusively (MIDI by number, Music XML by letter name and alteration). If they don't, there's a smoking gun.

Thanks much,
Frank Wilhoit
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