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can't insert new Notion4 instrument in a large template

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can't insert new Notion4 instrument in a large template

Postby Yves » Mon Apr 14, 2014 5:02 pm

Dear Support,

Something strange hapended:
-in one of my large Template (few notion4 instruments/garritan/miroslav + many vsl instruments/synful/wiviband, and many vst plugins thru several vst chain with "metaplugin", all in 64bit with jbridge), a Template that I have edited many-many time (I am at my "V13" configuration!)... ok so you get the picture.
-with this Template, i use to start a new song from a precedent song, erasing all notes, and restarting on writing new notes again
-now, ultimately, I was able to delete some unused Notion4 instruments (as exemple: Sus cymbal), but I can't re-insert it latter :when I insert sus cymbal, notion display a dialog box that it download the instrument... forever... and then notion is stucked.
- this hapend with all notion instruments ( and N3)
- i am only able to insert non notion instruments

what is stucked? any idea?
any idea how to fix it?

thank you all in advance,
Notion 4/Sonar X3 producer/Reason 7-Akai EWI USB/Yamaha C2s
Synful/Wivi/VSL inst./Miroslav/GPO4/N3 Exp. Sounds/QL Solo Violin/Hauptwerk
EW Symphonic Choirs+VOP/Vocaloid 3 Prima+Tonio
QL Pianos/Garritan Steinway/EZKeys/Pianoteq 4
Waves/Clariphonic/Maag
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Re: can't insert new Notion4 instrument in a large template

Postby Surfwhammy » Mon Apr 14, 2014 9:51 pm

Yves wrote:Something strange:
. . . I was able to delete some unused Notion4 instruments (Sus cymbal), but I can't re-insert it latter

. . . this happened with all notion instruments ( and N3)


If you have an already existing score which has the Suspended Cymbal, then try using it as a template, and see what happens . . .

If the saved score works correctly, then you might be able to create a new score using it as a template, but you also might be able to open the score with which you are having problems and then be able to add the Suspended Cymbal, since by virtue of having the older score with the Suspended Cymbal open, NOTION 4 knows about it, since it was able to find it via the older score . . .

Whether you can have two scores open will depend on available resources, but it might work . . .

Lots of FUN! :)
The Surf Whammys

Sinkhorn's Dilemma: Every paradox has at least one non-trivial solution!
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Re: can't insert new Notion4 instrument in a large template

Postby Yves » Tue Apr 15, 2014 3:30 pm

cut & paste all notes on a precedent Template... this is what I used to do when a notion file opens and no sound can be heard... this hapended to me few times in the past: when I started the play bouton, no sound/no moving play mark... I thought this issue was behind me (!) but not being able to insert new instrument worried me, as for exemple in my oldest Template I do not have all percussion instruments, so I should find a way to fix this!

also, surfwhammy, as you mentioned this procedure to cut & paste on an older Template, what I found out is that all my tied notes between two different measured where lost, and after a paste on an old Template, I had to manually redo all "ties" accros two measures... another problem... :?

thank you Surfwhammy for your quick response, your font of knowledge of Notion is impressive and you always shown yourself so helpful with everybody!!! :D

still, if someone found the same issue, and or knows the way to fix this, I would really welcome the solution!

BTW, when my problematic notion file is open, and that I leave it open and start another notion file, I am able to insert new Notion instrument in this blank file: so that means to me that the issue might be a kind of corruption of my notion file... I tried to explore the file with a xml editor, but the file structure is way more complex...

NOTION ADMIN: do you have a tool to analyse/fix corupted notion files? Is it my problem?
Notion 4/Sonar X3 producer/Reason 7-Akai EWI USB/Yamaha C2s
Synful/Wivi/VSL inst./Miroslav/GPO4/N3 Exp. Sounds/QL Solo Violin/Hauptwerk
EW Symphonic Choirs+VOP/Vocaloid 3 Prima+Tonio
QL Pianos/Garritan Steinway/EZKeys/Pianoteq 4
Waves/Clariphonic/Maag
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Yves
 
Posts: 43
Joined: Thu Nov 01, 2012 7:38 am

Re: can't insert new Notion4 instrument in a large template

Postby Surfwhammy » Wed Apr 16, 2014 9:27 am

Yves wrote:cut & paste all notes on a precedent Template... this is what I used to do when a notion file opens and no sound can be heard... this hapended to me few times in the past: when I started the play bouton, no sound/no moving play mark... I thought this issue was behind me (!) but not being able to insert new instrument worried me, as for exemple in my oldest Template I do not have all percussion instruments, so I should find a way to fix this!


Something similar happens when I am using the MOTU 828mk3 Hybrid external digital audio and MIDI interface rather than the computer sound system, and what happens is that the volume indicators move, showing that there is audio being generated, but I do not hear anything through the studio monitor system or headphones . . .

The reason is that Master stereo track of NOTION 3 and NOTION 4 by default outputs to the Channels 1-2 pair, but the MOTU 828mk3 Hybrid expects Main Out 1-2 to be on the Channels 9-10 pair, because in its internal mapping the eight Analog inputs are mapped to Channels 1 through 8, respectively . . .

So, I have to change the Master stereo track in the NOTION Mixer to output to the Channels 9-10 pair rather than the default Channels 1-2 pair . . .

THOUGHTS

This or something similar might be related to the problem, so check the NOTION Mixer settings for the individual instrument tracks and for the Master stereo output track, noting that all of them are stereo tracks, really . . .

When something strange like this happens, I check everything, since in some instances I might have set one instrument to Solo, and it is all I hear, of course, but I forgot that I left the Solo button ON; or I might have moved some of the volume sliders all the way down rather than using the Mute button . . .

ANOTHER IDEA

It is possible to have too many instruments in a NOTION 3 or NOTION 4 score, and while one might expect NOTION 4 running in 64-bit mode to have nearly no limitations, this is not the case . . .

For example, when I use MachFive 3 (MOTU) and have several instances, each with a single heavily-sampled instrument, the work done by MachFive 3 can overwhelm the computer and NOTION 4 very easily, which in practice maps to the NOTION 4 score being limited to perhaps 10 staves (total), and it only takes a handful of instances of MachFive 3 to do this . . .

For me, this is not a problem, since I developed a system for doing songs in NOTION 3, which as you know was constrained by being a 32-bit application; and the system I developed uses multiple NOTION scores for a single song, where even with NOTION 4 running in 64-bit mode, I limit the number of staves to an upper limit of 25, although when I use MachFive 3 the upper limit drops to the range of 5 to 10 staves . . .

The following YouTube music video demonstrates the NOTION 4 music notation and playback for the basic rhythm section of an older song I am revisiting to do nearly everything with virtual instruments and music notation, since the older version was done with real instruments at the time when producing and recording in the digital universe was not making so much sense . . .

As you can see there are not so many instruments (basically, drums, bass, and a violin section), but because two of the MachFive 3 instances have instruments that are heavily sampled (Jazz Bass and Star Drums), it does a lot of computing, which is fine with me, because it sounds as realistic as is possible in a practical way . . .

"Dance Baby Dance" (The Surf Whammys) ~ Basic Rhythm Section 2014 ~ YouTube music video

The suggestion in this context is that you might do an experiment where you delete a few of the instruments from a copy NOTION 4 score, of course . . .

Then, see if it makes any difference in the behavior, because the problem might be that you simply have too much stuff in a single NOTION 4 score . . .

If reducing the number of instruments in the NOTION 4 score solves the problem, then this provides a useful clue, and there are techniques you can use to have the same number of instruments as the original NOTION 4 score but in a way that has a smaller footprint with respect to computing resources, where for example in NOTION 3 it is possible to have at least 80 instruments provided by 5 instances of Miroslav Philharmonik, provided you do not use rules and any articulations other than the articulation in which the specific samples were played, noting that this is done with the VST version of Miroslav Philharmonik rather than with the predefined Miroslav Philharmonik templates, where for reference this is one of the experiments I am doing as time allows, and I think that it will work when I add a sixth VSTi instance of Miroslav Philharmonk, which will increase the total number of instruments to 96, where the key appears to be to create the user-defined custom COMBIs in the standalone version of Miroslav Philharmonik rather than to do it in NOTION 3 during score setup . . .

Otherwise, the maximum number of VSTi virtual instrument staves in a NOTION 3 score was 50 on the Mac, but it was safer to use 20 to 25 as the safe upper limit, which is what I did and continue to do with NOTION 4, regardless of whether NOTION 4 is running 32-bit mode or 64-bit mode. I have a system or "formula" for doing songs using multiple NOTION scores, and it works nicely, so I continue to use it, noting that it also includes having predefined templates for Digital Performer (MOTU) which are preconfigured for doing ReWire with channel pairs and tracks already created and mapped, so I can do everything quickly and work on NOTION 4 scores in a ReWire 2 session where Digital Performer 8 is the ReWIre 2 host controller and NOTION 4 is the ReWire 2 slave, all of which works very smoothly. In other words, I work on a set of instruments (music notation and virtual instruments) and then record the NOTION generated audio in Digital Performer, followed by saving everything; and then doing a "Save As . . ." of the current NOTION score, which I then use to add another set of instruments; and I hear the instruments I already did, because they are recorded in Digital Performer as sound bites, hence for all practical purposes it essentially is the same as doing everything in a single NOTION score that has as many as 500 to 1,000 staves, except that I do it in smaller sets of instruments with each set of instruments being a separate NOTION score and a separate set of soundbite tracks in Digital Performer, where every so often I need to consolidate the soundbites in Digital Performer to keep its number of tracks in the range of 50 or so, which is plenty of tracks . . .

This is all that comes to mind, except that you might want to call Notion Music technical support or to send them an email, because at present I think all of them are busy working on something, hence are not visiting this FORUM so often as they usually do . . .

Lots of FUN! :)
The Surf Whammys

Sinkhorn's Dilemma: Every paradox has at least one non-trivial solution!
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