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Notion 4 Digital Performer Rewire Problem

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Notion 4 Digital Performer Rewire Problem

Postby woodrow » Sat Feb 22, 2014 8:44 pm

Hi there,

I have recently switched DAW from Logic to Digital Performer. Having rewired notion into Logic, I wanted to do the same with DP.

The problem I am having has to do with channels in Notion and DP. The only time I get any sound in DP is when all my instruments in notion are assigned to the 'Master' channel in the mixer (not 1-2, 3-4 etc.), and then that same Channel is chosen in DP.

If I assign say the first instrument to 1-2, then the second to 3-4 and so on, then match each of those with with a corresponding stereo audio track in DP with the same Channels selected (i.e. Notion 1-2, 3-4 etc.). But doing this never gives me any playback.

Obviously the reason in wanting to rewire is so you can have DAW controls over each individual instrument for EQ, Compression etc.

Any help?

P.S - Surf Whammy - you have been helpful in the past but please if you want to help, keep it short. No offence, but I tend to get quite confused as to the size of your posts regarding the Rewire stuff. I am only interested in how to rewire Notion 4 into DP 8. Sorry if that sounded rude I didn't mean it to.

Thanks guys
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Re: Notion 4 Digital Performer Rewire Problem

Postby Surfwhammy » Mon Feb 24, 2014 10:13 am

woodrow wrote:The problem I am having has to do with channels in Notion and DP. The only time I get any sound in DP is when all my instruments in notion are assigned to the 'Master' channel in the mixer (not 1-2, 3-4 etc.), and then that same Channel is chosen in DP.

If I assign say the first instrument to 1-2, then the second to 3-4 and so on, then match each of those with with a corresponding stereo audio track in DP with the same Channels selected (i.e. Notion 1-2, 3-4 etc.). But doing this never gives me any playback.


Digital Performer (MOTU) does ReWire 2 with NOTION 4 very well, and it actually is the easiest to use Digital Audio Workstation (DAW) application for doing ReWire 2 with NOTION 4 on the Mac, because it does not require the intermediate step of using auxiliary channels . . .


There are three rules that I use to avoid problems:

(1) Never rewind the transport to the first beat of the first measure in a ReWire 2 session with Digital Performer and NOTION 4. Instead, insert four empty measures in the NOTION 4 score and start the actual music on the first beat of the fifth measure. Use a marker in Digital Performer to rewind to the first beat of the fifth measure instead of using the full-rewind button on the Digital Performer or NOTION 4 transports. You can rewind or jump forward as you desire but just not all the way back to the start at the first beat of the first measure, because this causes Digital Performer to crash, which is the reason that I consider this to be a problem with Digital Performer rather than a problem with NOTION 4 . . .

(2) Do not use any channel pairs that have only single-digit channel numbers, other than the default 1-2 channel pair, which you should use only for the NOTION 4 Master stereo track. Instead, start with the 11-12 channel pair and go upward if you need more than one channel pair, since it is the first channel pair that has double-digit channel numbers for both channels . . .

[NOTE: Using single-digit ReWire 2 channel numbers with NOTION 4 and Digital Performer 8.06 is not a problem, so it depends on the version numbers of NOTION and Digital Performer. This was a problem with NOTION 3 and Digital Performer 7 . . . ]

(3) When you experience problems configuring Digital Performer and NOTION 4 for ReWire 2, exit both applications; start NOTION 4; toggle the "Enable ReWire" option; exit NOTION 4; and then try again. This causes NOTION 4 to reload the ReWire 2 infrastructure, which usually clears any problems caused by whatever you were doing. Again, I do not consider this to be a problem caused by NOTION 4, but it is an easy way to do a ReWIre 2 infrastructure reset or whatever one wants to call it . . .

THOUGHTS

(1) If you are not hearing input from NOTION 4, then one possibility is that you do not have the blue "Input" buttons set for the respective tracks. In a ReWire 2 session, the blue "Input" buttons tell Digital Performer to use the audio sent from NOTION 4 rather than any soundbite audio you already have recorded in Digital Performer for the respective tracks. I usually set the red "Record" buttons as well, since this enables tracks for recording but does not record them unless you press the "RECORD" button on the Digital Performer transport . . .

[NOTE: If you press the "RECORD" button on the NOTION 4 transport, NOTION 4 will think that you want to record MIDI, which is entirely different. So, for recording NOTION 4 generated audio in Digital Performer in a ReWire 2 session, use the "RECORD" button on the Digital Performer transport, not the one on the NOTION 4 transport. When I use the word "set", I am referring to clicking on the respective button, which for an "Input" button turns it blue if it was not set, but turns it gray if it was set. When these buttons are OFF in Digital Performer, they are gray, but when they are ON, they are different colors depending on their function . . . ]

(2) Another possibility is that you do not have the outputs set correctly for the tracks in Digital Performer that receive input from NOTION 4 via ReWire . . .

(3) Instead of selecting NOTION 4 ReWire 2 channel pairs directly from the drop-down listbox for input to Digital Performer, scroll downward and do it via "New Stereo Bundle". It is possible to have ReWIre 2 channel pairs from an older version of NOTION or from NOTION when you were running a different version of Mac OS X, and the links might not be good. Doing it as a "New Stereo Bundle" ensures that you are getting the current link to NOTION 4 for ReWIre 2. When this happens with a saved Digital Performer project, the bad links will be grayed, while correct links to NOTION 4 will be black . . .

QUESTIONS

(1) Which version of Mac OS X are you using?

(2) Which version of Digital Performer are you using?

(3) Are you running both applications in the same mode ([a] both in 32-bit or [b] both in 64-bit)?

Let me know if this information helps you resolve the problem. If not, then providing more information will help, but the fact of the matter is that Digital Performer does ReWire 2 with NOTION 4, so it is just a matter of getting everything configured correctly, which is fabulous . . .

Fabulous! :)

P. S. This is a YouTube video that show how to do ReWire 2 with Digital Performer 8.06, NOTION 4, and Reason 7 in Mac OS X 10.9.1 (Mavericks) . . .

[NOTE: The VSTi virtual instruments in the NOTION 4 score are Kontakt 5 (Native Instruments), MachFive 3 (MOTU), and Twin 2 (FabFilter Software Instruments), and the AU and VST effects plug-ins are from FabFilter Software Instruments, IK Multimedia, and Wave Arts . . . ]

DP8 N4 R7 ReWire2 MIDI ~ YouTube video

Lots of FUN! :ugeek:
Last edited by Surfwhammy on Mon Feb 24, 2014 9:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Notion 4 Digital Performer Rewire Problem

Postby woodrow » Mon Feb 24, 2014 9:34 pm

I am using DP 8.05 and the latest Notion 4.

Both are running in 64-bit.

Now I can't seem to get any sound at all...

There are some screens of what I am doing:

Screen Shot 2014-02-25 at 12.23.02 pm.png
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Screen Shot 2014-02-25 at 12.23.34 pm.png
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Screen Shot 2014-02-25 at 12.23.47 pm.png
Screen Shot 2014-02-25 at 12.23.47 pm.png (507.47 KiB) Viewed 7784 times
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Re: Notion 4 Digital Performer Rewire Problem

Postby Surfwhammy » Mon Feb 24, 2014 10:15 pm

woodrow wrote:I am using DP 8.05 and the latest Notion 4.

Both are running in 64-bit.

Now I can't seem to get any sound at all...

There are some screens of what I am doing:


Everything looks correct, except that you have Digital Performer set to 24-bit resolution, where it should be 16-bit resolution, since NOTION 4 outputs audio at standard CD quality which is 44.1-kHz at 16-bits . . .

Image

This is the setting I use:

Image

QUESTION: Can you post a screen capture of the Digital Performer Mixing Board?

QUESTION: When you press "Play" on the DP8 transport, do the volume meters in the DP8 Mixing Board show that it is receiving audio from NOTION 4? And do you see activity in the NOTION 4 Mixer?

QUESTION: Does the NOTION 4 current position bar (the green bar) move when you are playing the audio in the ReWire 2 session?

[NOTE: It should look like DP8 and NOTION 4 in the YouTube video found at the end of my previous reply, except that I use a MOTU 828mk3 Hybrid which requires using "Main Out 1-2 (Stereo)" as the Master stereo output channel rather than the Apple Core Audio default, which is the "Built-in Output 1-2" stereo output . . . ]

The answers to these questions might provide more clues if changing the Digital Performer resolution from 24-bits to 16-bits does not solve the problem . . .

Lots of FUN! :)

P. S. The Digital Performer 8.06 update was just released. I have not noticed any difference, really . . .
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Re: Notion 4 Digital Performer Rewire Problem

Postby Rubens » Sat Jun 07, 2014 12:37 am

Hi, Surfwhammy, I have sound but my Notion output doesn't show stereo pairs like Ch1-2 or Ch22-23 as we see in the attached image from woodrow, but only 1l+1R, 2l+2R etc. Why is that so?

The question is: should I control the pan from DP or from Notion? If it is from DP, how if I can't have stereo outputs assigned from Notion to DP?

Should I open as manny tracks in DP as I will have instruments in Notion?

By the way Notion is sounding through aux track in DP...

thank you!

P.S. I am using the latest updates of all softwares and system, using a mac and a motu ultralite interface.
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Re: Notion 4 Digital Performer Rewire Problem

Postby Surfwhammy » Sat Jun 07, 2014 4:07 am

Rubens wrote:Hi, Surfwhammy, I have sound but my Notion output doesn't show stereo pairs like Ch1-2 or Ch22-23 as we see in the attached image from woodrow, but only 1l+1R, 2l+2R etc. Why is that so?


NOTION 3 used "Ch. 1-2", but NOTION 4 does it a different way, where the numbering is based on having 32 stereo pairs . . .

So, to get "Ch. 9-10" you select "5L + 5R" . . .

Once selected, it displays in the NOTION 4 Mixer as "Ch. 9-10", but in Digital Performer it is displayed as the first few characters of "5L + 5R" . . .

The way I remember it is that the stereo channel pairs are (odd, even) and the counting begins with 1, so you look at the even number and divide it in half, where for example if you want "Ch. 17-18", then you select "9L + 9R" . . .

I like it the way it was In NOTION 3, but it is not difficult to do the mapping for NOTION 4 once you remember the forumla . . .

Rubens wrote:The question is: should I control the pan from DP or from Notion? If it is from DP, how if I can't have stereo outputs assigned from Notion to DP?


NOTION 4 almost has true stereo panning controls, where the "almost" aspect is that the volume slider controls both the left channel volume and the right channel volume equally rather than having a separate volume control for the left channel and a separate volume control for the right channel . . .

However, you can move the left and right channels independently in the custom NOTION 4 stereo panning control, which maps to being able to pan the left and right channels separately . . .

The best technique for panning depends on several factors, including (a) the content of the left and right channels and (b) what you need to do in Digital Performer when you switch to producing and mixing . . .

It also is important to understand that Digital Performer provides stereo balance controls rather than stereo panning controls, but you can use the MOTU Trim plug-in to do true stereo panning, but again with the caveat that Digital Performer stereo tracks have a single volume slider that sets the left channel volume and the right channel volume . . .

However, with the MOTU Trim control added to the effects or "Inserts" chain, you can control both the individual channel panning and individual channel volume, but for individual channel volume only in the range of -40 dB to +40 dB, where the practical aspect is using -40 dB to map approximately to no volume and 0 dB to map to full volume. Going beyond 0 dB involves amplifying, so usually is not something you want to do . . .

Panning is very important, but until you take the time to understand how all the various controls and applications handle panning for stereo tracks, it is difficult to make sense of everything . . .

In fact, panning is so important that I am starting to wonder whether there is an industry conspiracy to prevent people from understanding how panning actually works and what one can do with panning, perhaps toward the goal of preventing the common folk from being able to create hit records in home studios . . .

Another possibility is that the various software engineers are just as confused as everyone else, except the folks who have multi-million dollar studios and produce hit records . . .

At present, I discount the conspiracy theory, because (a) it probably is too complex and (b) it would require too many team meetings to be practical . . .

For reference, the way I discovered the most recent bit of information regarding panning was entirely a bit of serendipity, since I had not noticed it . . .

Specifically, nearly all "stereo" sampled instruments are recorded with two microphones, where the output of one microphone is the left channel and the output of the other microphone is the right channel, with the general goal being to capture locational information. When one is focused primarily on Pop music or any genre where it is important for the listener actually to be able to hear the music, there is not a lot of difference in the two channels (Left, right), which in turn makes it possible treat a "stereo" track as if it were a monaural track for panning purposes, albiet in Digital Performer when there is a Trim control at the end of the effects chain, since a Digital Performer stereo audio track with a MOTU Trim control works essentially the same way as a stereo audio track in NOTION 4, except that there is more control over the respective volume levels of the two channels in Digital Performer, but not completely, because at the -40 dB setting there is some of the channel . . .

More to the point, I was experimenting with a "stereo" synthesizer track which had something completely different for each channel, where for example the left channel was a drumkit and the right channel was a tenor saxophone; and what happened is that no matter what I did, there always as a tiny bit of drumkit and tenor saxophone . . .

I could have the tenor saxophone at normal volume and the drumkit at -40 dB, but I still heard the drumkit; and the same thing happened with I switched the respective volume levels . . .

Prior to this, I described the NOTION 4 panning control and the Digital Performer panning control enhanced with the MOTU Trim control as being "true stereo panning" controls, but without being able to turn the volume for each channel all the way OFF, they are not true stereo panning controls. Instead, they are almost true panning controls . . .

Consequently, the only way to do it is to split the two channels and route each channel to a separate monaural audio track, since (a) the panning control for a monaural audio track is a true panning control and (b) you can turn the volume all the way OFF for a monaural audio track . . .

One of the best way to understand the importance of panning is to study a few songs, one of which is "Who Owns My Heart" (Miley Cyrus), where you listen to the song with studio quality headphones like the SONY MDR-7506 (a personal favorite) over and over toward the goal of being able to hear everything in an immediately conscious way . . .

"Who Owns My Heart" (Miley Cyrus) ~ YouTube music video

Specifically, you want to pay attention to where the individual instruments, vocals, and sound effects originate, where for example I am comfortable suggesting that there are at least 100 different vocal tracks, many of which are the beginning consonants or tails of words, custom echoes, occasional auto-tuned phrases, random choral warbling, and so forth to the extent that it is a bit mind-boggling . . .

And there are instruments and voices that are heard only at far-left or far-right, which is not possible when you cannot position the various sounds with extreme precision, with this being a combination of panning, volume controlling, ducking, brick wall equalizing, reverberating, delaying, echoing, phasing, and other types of advanced signal processing . . .

These are the rules I use:

(1) Producing and mixing is done in Digital Performer or another Digital Audio Workstation (DAW) application if you are not using Digital Performer . . .

(2) Panning is an arranging, producing, and mixing activity, hence is best done in the Digital Performer . . .

(3) I do not use plug-ins in the NOTION 4 Mixer, but depending on what I need to do, I set the NOTION 4 panning for instruments either (a) to full panning or (b) to a very specific panning setting when I want to position something in a particular location, at least to the extent this is possible . . .

[NOTE: Since you can adjust the panning in Digital Performer via the MOTU Trim control, and you also can split the stereo soundbite into two monaural tracks to enable true panning, the simplest strategy is to leave the NOTION 4 panning set to full panning, but you can experiment with different strategies. The following screen capture shows the different types of panning settings I use, where the setting for the K5 Trombone is "full panning". These are the settings I used in the NOTION 4 Mixer for the respective instruments in "She Wants You", but I adjusted the panning in Digital Performer once the NOTION 4 generated audio was recorded as soundbites via ReWire 2 . . . ]

Image

[NOTE: This is the MOTU Trim plug-in for the K5 Trombone in the Digital Performer Mixing Board, where the left channel is panned to far-right with its volume set to -40 dB, while the right channel is moved a tiny bit to the right of top-center. Note that in the NOTION 4 Mixer the K5 Trombone is set to "full" panning . . . ]

Image

"She Wants You" (The Surf Whammys) ~ Basic Rhythm Section ~ YouTube music video

(4) I set all the volume sliders to 0 dB in the NOTION 4 Mixer, and I do this because I want the resulting soundbites in Digital Performer to be consistent with the sampled sounds, which is based on the presumption that 0 dB is the neutral setting for the NOTION 4 volume sliders, neither cutting nor boosting the raw sampled sounds . . .

(5) I also keep all the volume sliders in Digital Performer pegged to 0 dB and use compressor-limiters to do the actual volume adjusting; and I have different types of compressor-limiters for different instruments and vocals, since one type works nicely for bass, while another type works nicely for guitars, and so forth . . .

~ ~ ~ Continued in the next post ~ ~ ~
Last edited by Surfwhammy on Sat Jun 07, 2014 4:48 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Notion 4 Digital Performer Rewire Problem

Postby Surfwhammy » Sat Jun 07, 2014 4:43 am

~ ~ ~ Continued from the previous post ~ ~ ~

Rubens wrote:Should I open as manny tracks in DP as I will have instruments in Notion?


I have a separate stereo audio track in the Digital Performer project for each virtual instrument in the NOTION 4 scores, noting that "scores" is plural, because it requires several NOTION 4 scores for a typical Pop song . . .

Some of the VSTi virtual instruments I use have large sampled sound libraries for single instruments, and this maps to using a lot of computer resources, which in turn limits the number of VSTi virtual instruments I can have in a single NOTION 4 score . . .

Generally, I limit a NOTION 4 score to 20 or perhaps 25 VSTi virtual instruments, but there are a few VSTi instruments that are so resource intensive that I keep the total to 10 or fewer VSTi virtual instruments per NOTION 4 score . . .

I think that 50 stereo audio tracks in a Digital Performer project is plenty, and if you need more, then you can consolidate some of the tracks and then use the composite, which will be a single stereo audio track, thereby making a few more stereo audio tracks available, and this also works for monaural audio tracks . . .

There are scenarios where you might want to have several hundred tracks, and the only practical way to do this is to consolidate tracks in groups by doing submixes and then using the submixes instead of the individual tracks, all of which is part of the general strategy of building a song in layers . . .

The primary logic I use that the when I switch to arranging, producing, and mixing, I want to have as much control over everything as possible, and this maps to keeping the various instruments and vocals separate on their own stereo audio tracks or monaural audio tracks, as the case might be . . .

Rubens wrote:. . . Notion is sounding through aux track in DP...


You do not need to use auxiliary tracks in Digital Performer, even though this is what the various ReWire and other documentation suggests . . .

In fact, this is one of the things I really like about Digital Performer, because it avoids needing to use intermediate tracks for ReWire 2, which is what auxiliary tracks are . . .

This is the stereo audio track for the K5 Trombone in the Digital Performer Mixing Board, and the input is set to the ReWire 2 channel sent from NOTION 4, while the output is set to the Master stereo audio track, which is "Main 1-2" in the Digital Performer project . . .

No auxiliary channel is required, and the key is that to hear the audio generated by NOTION 4 you need to set input monitoring ON, which is done with the light-blue "input" button. To record, the "rec" button needs to be ON, which turns it red . . .

Image

Rubens wrote:I am using . . . a mac and a motu ultralite interface.


Excellent! :)

CueMix FX comes with the MOTU UltraLite, and it has various meters and analyzers, some of which I used in the YouTube music video for "She Wants You"; and these are useful, because the stellar aspect of meters and analyzers is that they do not have opinions, just facts . . .

Generally, I trust my ears, but I check everything with meters and analyzers, and if the meters and analyzers are showing one thing but I am hearing something different, then this provides the clue that something else is happening, since ideally what I hear should match what the meters and analyzers are measuring or revealing . . .

For reference, the top part of the YouTube music video for "She Wants You" is the CueMix FX FFT Analyzer, and the bottom part is the T-RackS Metering Suite, which incidentally is included in the FREE version of T-RackS CS (IK Multimedia), which is fabulous . . .

[NOTE: The download link for the FREE version of T-RackS CS it at the left. The T-RackS Metering Suite also is in AU and VST plug-in formats, so you can use it in both NOTION 4 and Digital Performer as a plug-in separately from T-RackS CS . . . ]

T-RackS Custom Shop FREE (IK Multimedia)

Fabulous! :D
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Re: Notion 4 Digital Performer Rewire Problem

Postby Rubens » Sat Jun 07, 2014 10:43 am

"Ch. 1-2", but NOTION 4 does it a different way, where the numbering is based on having 32 stereo pairs
So, to get "Ch. 9-10" you select "5L + 5R" . . .

Once selected, it displays in the NOTION 4 Mixer as "Ch. 9-10", but in Digital Performer it is displayed as the first few characters of "5L + 5R" . . .


Ok this is done thank you. But now it seems that Notion instruments are not going through the master fader, so it has no sound... What is missing?
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Re: Notion 4 Digital Performer Rewire Problem

Postby Rubens » Sat Jun 07, 2014 10:55 am

To help more!
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Re: Notion 4 Digital Performer Rewire Problem

Postby Rubens » Sat Jun 07, 2014 11:00 am

Did some experiment and the thing is that if I use aux tracks instead of audio tracks everything works perfectly. So... should I stay with the auxs or there is a way to fix the audio tracks?
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