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Midi with my Yamaha Motif XS8 - Mac Mavericks

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Midi with my Yamaha Motif XS8 - Mac Mavericks

Postby rn2114 » Sun Jan 19, 2014 6:09 pm

Hi:

I am new to Notion and am trying to set up my Yamaha Motif XS8 to work with midi keyboard entry and with Midi out (mapped to the sounds within the Motif) in Notion 4. I'm using a midi interface usb cable between my Mac (Mavericks os 10.9.1) and the Motif, and have been able to get the midi in to transmit from the Motif into the computer in garageband (as a means of testing connection), but have been unable to get it to consistently talk to Notion. (I had the keyboard input working for a bit, but when I restarted the computer the next day it no longer worked. I've not yet gotten the midi out to communicate from Notion with the Motif, even intermittently.) I've gone through the preferences and midi set up steps and tried setting the midi input port in Notion to the interface cable and tried setting it to all, neither work. I've also set up the Midi output to the interface cable with no luck either. I have had luck setting up the input port to my LPK25 midi keyboard which works both when selecting it alone or when selecting all for the input port, just not consistently with the Motif.

I'm hoping that there is some simple step or thing that I am missing for getting Notion 4 to talk Midi in/out with the Motif. I think that the motif settings are ok because I was able to get it to talk to garageband in my test. I'm fairly new to all of this and have watched the tutorials on midi keyboard entry and read the manual on it, but still haven't found what I am missing. Any help from those much more expert than I would be greatly appreciated!
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Re: Midi with my Yamaha Motif XS8 - Mac Mavericks

Postby rn2114 » Mon Jan 20, 2014 5:43 pm

Ok - a quick update for anyone who could help. I have gotten the motif to speak to the computer, both in and out, through USB midi. So now I am able to send signal from the computer midi control panel to the keyboard to play as well as receive signal to Notion. I am not, however, able to send signal to the keyboard from Notion still. I can receive the midi keyboard input for entering notes, but when I set to the midi out for the motif from the staff on notion and in the midi preferences for out I am getting no signal out. I also tested it on another yamaha keyboard that I have and had the same result. midi in works into notion, but midi out doesn't seem to work from Notion but does work from the computer midi control panel. This indicates to me that I must be missing a step with Notion as the break seems to be from Notion to the keyboard, not the computer to the keyboard. Is there a step that I am missing?

Thanks!
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Re: Midi with my Yamaha Motif XS8 - Mac Mavericks

Postby Surfwhammy » Tue Jan 21, 2014 9:32 am

rn2114 wrote:Ok - a quick update for anyone who could help. I have gotten the motif to speak to the computer, both in and out, through USB midi. So now I am able to send signal from the computer midi control panel to the keyboard to play as well as receive signal to Notion. I am not, however, able to send signal to the keyboard from Notion still. I can receive the midi keyboard input for entering notes, but when I set to the midi out for the motif from the staff on notion and in the midi preferences for out I am getting no signal out. I also tested it on another yamaha keyboard that I have and had the same result. midi in works into notion, but midi out doesn't seem to work from Notion but does work from the computer midi control panel. This indicates to me that I must be missing a step with Notion as the break seems to be from Notion to the keyboard, not the computer to the keyboard. Is there a step that I am missing?

Thanks!


To send MIDI to an external MIDI device like a MIDI keyboard--as well as to send MIDI to another digital music production application on the same computer--you need to use a NOTION 4 External MIDI staff, where you specify the MIDI port and channel for the NOTION 4 External MIDI staff at the time you do the score setup for the staff in NOTION 4 Score Setup . . .

[NOTE: You need to route the audio generated by the external MIDI device to a DAW application, since you will not hear it played in NOTION 4 (see below). You need a NOTION 4 External Staff for each external MIDI device or internal application to which you want to send MIDI. For example, if you want to send MIDI to three external MIDI devices, then you will need three NOTION 4 External MIDI staves; and if you also want to send MIDI to a digital application like Reason 7 (Propellerhead Software), then you will need additional NOTION 4 External MIDI staves, which are routed to Reason 7 via a "virtual MIDI cable", which is based on the "IAC Driver" that comes with Mac OS X . . . ]

To be clear regarding interapplication MIDI, if you want to send MIDI from NOTION 4 to Reason 7 (Propellerhead Software), then you will need a "virtual MIDI cable", which you create in the "Audio MIDI Setup" application via the Mac OS X "IAC Driver" . . .

Controlling Reason 7 virtual synthesizers is done in a ReWire 2 session where either NOTION 4 or a Digital Audio Workstation (DAW) application like Digital Performer (MOTU), Live 9 (Ableton), Logic Pro 9/X (Apple), or Studio One 2.6.1 Producer or Professional (PreSonus) will be the ReWire 2 host controller and Reason 7 will be the ReWire 2 slave . . .

NOTION 4 also works nicely as a ReWire 2 slave, so you can have the DAW application as the ReWire 2 host controller and both NOTION 4 and Reason 7 acting as ReWire 2 slaves . . .

And since Reason 7 now has External MIDI functionality, you can use Reason 7 to send MIDI to NOTION 4 at the same time as NOTION 4 is sending MIDI to Reason 7, but not to the same synthesizers and staves, of course . . .

When you send MIDI from a NOTION 4 External MIDI staff to your MIDI keyboard synthesizer, the audio will not go to NOTION 4, so you need a DAW application to hear the audio generated by your MIDI keyboard synthesizer, and you need a DAW application to record the audio generated by your MIDI keyboard, since NOTION 4 does not record audio . . .

NOTION 4 records MIDI, not audio . . .

This is a YouTube video showing a ReWire 2 session where Logic Pro X is the ReWire 2 host controller and both NOTION 4 and Reason 7 are ReWire 2 slaves . . .

There are four NOTION 4 staves, and two of them are External MIDI staves that have music notation which plays Reason 7 synthesizers, while the other two staves are playing VSTi virtual instruments from MachFive 3 (MOTU), which are a Fender Jazz Bass and a Hammond B3 Organ . . .

The singing and most of the instruments are handled by Reason 7, and this is a modified version of "Faster" (Techno Squirrels), which is one of the demo songs that came with an earlier version of Reason and is a personal favorite that I use for this type of educational YouTube video. I like the song, and I did a bit of arranging, as well, which is fabulous . . .

[NOTE: The primary purpose for this YouTube video was to emphasize the fact that the 64-bit version of NOTION 4 benefits greatly by having more memory on the Mac, since once everything is loaded, all the work is done in memory with very little real-time hard drive activity and based on my testing with Mac OS X 10.9.1 (Mavericks), all the system memory you can install will be used at least some of the time when doing digital music production, which makes upgrading system memory a good, cost effective strategy, depending on your budget and the current discount price for system memory, of course . . . ]

"Faster" (Techno Squirrels) ~ Surfwhammy Remix ~ YouTube music video

Fabulous! :)

P. S. If you need more help, let me know by posting a follow-up question . . .

P. P. S. If you are going to be using several external MIDI devices to generate audio, as well as using microphones and so forth, then you will need an external digital audio and MIDI interface like the MOTU 828mk3 Hybrid (a personal favorite) or the PreSounus Audiobox 1818VSL 18-Channel USB Interface; and you will need to use a DAW application that supports ReWire 2 (see above), really . . .

[NOTE: If your Mac has Thunderbolt ports, then the new MOTU 828x is the preferred model, but if your Mac is older and has FireWire ports, then the MOTU 828mk3 Hybrid continues to be available if you want to use FireWire . . . ]

MOTU 828x/828mk3 Hybrid

AudioBox 1818VSL (PreSonus)

Really! :ugeek:
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Re: Midi with my Yamaha Motif XS8 - Mac Mavericks

Postby rn2114 » Tue Jan 21, 2014 7:20 pm

Thanks for the great reply! I have a logistical question about this statement:

"When you send MIDI from a NOTION 4 External MIDI staff to your MIDI keyboard synthesizer, the audio will not go to NOTION 4, so you need a DAW application to hear the audio generated by your MIDI keyboard synthesizer, and you need a DAW application to record the audio generated by your MIDI keyboard, since NOTION 4 does not record audio . . . "

If my keyboard is set up to play local sounds and is set up to an external monitor speaker to do so and does play the sounds through this speaker when playing the keys, should it also play the sounds through the speaker if getting the midi control signals from Notion to do so?

I just tried setting up Garageband as a DAW (simple, I know, but I am just getting started and don't have another program yet) and am able to receive the midi signals from the motif keyboard when playing the physical keys, but am not able to receive or hear anything when sending the signals from Notion. It seems like I would need to set up the garage band as an audio input to hear and record the sounds midi from Notion is creating in the Motif according to the above statement, but if there is audio to input, shouldn't it be coming out of my monitor connected to the motif as well since the local sounds are on in the motif settings?

What I am trying to accomplish is to have an orchestration that I create in Notion play with the sound bank from the motif. I don't need to record it, and was hoping that I could just hear it through the audio output of the Motif.

I'm attaching the images of how I have the setting setup in Notion to send the midi out to the Motif. I've used Midi Output A and channel 1. I think that these settings are all correct based on everything that I have read, but I think I am still am not getting any signal inputting into the motif from Notion. Someone else posted about using the motif as a VST in another program, am wondering if that is the route that I am supposed to be taking and if I am barking up the wrong tree with the midi out method.

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Re: Midi with my Yamaha Motif XS8 - Mac Mavericks

Postby Surfwhammy » Tue Jan 21, 2014 9:50 pm

The rules I explained in my initial reply were focused more on recording via the ReWire 2 scenario, which is the one I use nearly all the time at present . . .

The outstanding news is that you should be able to do what you want to do, at least if the Yamaha Motif XS8 is sufficiently similar in its functionality and connectivity to a KORG Triton Music Workstation (88-Keys), which is one of the MIDI devices I use here in the sound isolation studio . . .

rn2114 wrote:If my keyboard is set up to play local sounds and is set up to an external monitor speaker to do so and does play the sounds through this speaker when playing the keys, should it also play the sounds through the speaker if getting the midi control signals from Notion to do so?


Yes!

think the problem is that you need to route the MIDI output from NOTION 4 to the Yamaha Motif XS8, which probably is done via Mac OS X "Audio MIDI Setup". Since you are connecting to the MacBook Pro with a USB cable, this is a bit different from using standard MIDI cables and connecting to an external digital audio and MIDI interface like the MOTU 828mk3 Hybrid, but there should be some documentation on how to configure the USB MIDI somewhere, where the key is to determine whether the Yamaha Motif XS8 can receive MIDI input via the USB cable and its software interface. The USB cable should support two-way MIDI, but it might not be two-way . . .

Here in the sound isolation studio, the USB MIDI output by the Behringer UMA25S mini-MIDI keyboard is shown in Mac OS X "Audio MIDI Setup", and I did not need to do anything in particular to get it working, but I think it is a one-way connection, since the Behringer UMA25S mini-MIDI keyboard only has one standard MIDI port, and it is MIDI Out . . .

OVERVIEW

There are several things happening, and each of them has a set of basic rules that needs to be satisfied, where in some respects one of the most important bits of information is that all it takes for everything to stop working nicely is for one thing to be incorrect, which can be a bit frustrating, but the solution is to develop a set of procedures and to follow them precisely . . .

Here in the sound isolation studio, I have a MOTU 828mk3 Hybrid external digital audio and MIDI interface connected to the 2.8-GHz 8-core Mac Pro (Early 2008) with 20GB of memory running Mac OS X 10.9.1 (Mavericks), and it is what I use to digitize microphones, electric guitar, electric bass, and the analog line-level audio outputsof the KORG Triton Music Workstation (88-Keys) and Alesis ION Analog Modeling Synthesizer, which I use occasionally . . .

The MOTU 828mk3 Hybrid is important in this setup, because it supports standard MIDI, and the MIDI ports of the KORG Triton and Alesis ION are standard MIDI, which is entirely different from USB MIDI, but I also have a Behringer UMA-25S mini-MIDI keyboard that has both USB and MIDI Out ports, so I connect it directly to one of the USB ports of the Mac Pro, mostly because at present I have only one pair of standard MIDI cables . . .

I did a quick experiment, and the result was the same as the problem you are experiencing; so I did a bit of checking to determine what was wrong, and the problem became obvious after a few seconds of checking cables and so forth . . .

There was no audio output, because the left and right TRS audio cables connected to the KORG Triton were not connected to anything else; so I connected them to a pair of monaural analog line-level inputs on the MOTU 828mk3 Hybrid, and when I pressed a few keys on the KORG Triton, I heard audio from the calibrated full-range studio monitors here in the sound isolation studio . . .

The next bit of checking involved creating a new NOTION 4 score with a single External MIDI staff that outputs to Port A and Channel 1; and I set the MIDI output for NOTION 4 in the MIDI tab of NOTION 4 Preferences to the MOTU 828mk3 Hybrid MIDI Port, since the standard MIDI Out cable from the KORG Triton is connected to the MOTU 828mk3 Hybrid, and while there was MIDI input to NOTION 4, there was no MIDI output from NOTION 4 to the KORG Triton, which was a bit puzzling until I got a flashlight and looked at the MIDI ports for the KORG Triton, where I noticed that there was only one standard MIDI cable attached, and it was attached to the MIDI Out port of the KORG Triton, hence the KORG Triton could send MIDI to the MOTU 828mk3 Hybrid and consequently to NOTION 4, but the MOTU 828mk3 Hybrid could not send MIDI to the KORG Triton, and NOTION 4 could not send MIDI to the KORG Triton; so I corrected this by connecting the other at the time unused standard MIDI cable from the MIDI Out port of the MOTU 828mk3 Hybrid to the MIDI In port of the KORG Triton, and then everything worked, which included being able to use music notation in the NOTION 4 to play notes on the KORG Triton and to hear the notes played through the calibrated full-range studio monitor system, which essentially is the configuration you desire, if I understand everything correctly . . .

These are the relevant screens, where it is important to note that the default global tuning pitch for NOTION 4 is not standard "Concert A" in the US, which is 440-Hz, so if you want the NOTION 4 generate audio to be tuned correctly to standard instruments and singing in the US, then you need to change the global tuning value to 440-Hz, which is done via the General tab of NOTION 4 Preferences . . .

Image

[NOTE: You will observe that the MIDI Out device is listed as "Triton Studio" rather than as "828mk3 Hybrid #2", and this changed when there were a pair of standard MIDI cables connected to the MOTU 828mk3 Hybrid MIDI In and MIDI Out ports, respectively, and I connected them with lines in "Audio MIDI Setup". Something else that happens is that in some instances when you run Mac OS X "Audio MIDI Setup", it clears the settings for MIDI that you specified in NOTION 4 Preferences, so you need to check the MIDI settings in NOTION 4 Preferences after running "Audio MIDI Setup", and to correct them as necessary if they have changed, where this is something that happens when one is getting everything configured correctly and is doing experiments, hence the need for a set of procedures, which includes steps to check that everything is configured correctly. This stuff works, but it is a bit complex, and since it typically involves several digital music production applications, doing something in one application can cause stuff that was correctly configured in other applications to be reset or whatever. After a bit of experimenting and developing a nice set of procedures and rules, everything works accurately and reliably, and when there is a problem, you know where to start when troubleshooting. Once you understand how everything works, the various configurations and settings tend to be very stable, so changing and checking stuff mostly is something one needs to do when experimenting . . . ]

Image

[NOTE: There are two icons for the MOTU 828mk3 Hybrid, since I did some experiments a while ago and created two of them, but I use only one, which at present is the second one. If you move the mouse pointer over the "i" inside the circle at the top right of the MOTU 828mk3 Hybrid #2" icon, it shows the physical MIDI connections, as is the case for the "i" inside the circle at the top right of the "Triton Studio" icon in the "Audio MIDI Setup" MIDI Studio window . . . ]

Image

THOUGHTS

I am using standard MIDI cables, and standard MIDI cables are not two-way, so it is easy to solve problems involving MIDI In and MIDI Out . . .

Using a USB cable for MIDI is a bit different, since it should be two-way, but the way USB MIDI works will depend on the specifics of the Yamaha Motif XS8 and the way you have it configured in the Mac OS X "Audio MIDI Setup" application, as well as the way it is configured in NOTION 4 Preferences . . .

Based on what you described, it appears that the Yamaha Motif XS8 is not receiving the MIDI notes and commands sent from NOTION 4, so you will need to do a bit of reading to determine how to do this MIDI message routing . . .

To hear the audio generated by the Yamaha Motif XS8, you need to connect its left and right line-level audio outputs to your studio monitors or sound system, but you also should be able to hear the audio when you listen with headphones connected to the Yamaha Motif XS8, and it looks like you already have this working correctly . . .

Let me know if this information helps . . .

It works here in the sound isolation studio, but as noted (see above) I am using standard MIDI cables and an external digital audio and MIDI interface rather than two-way USB . . .

Lots of FUN!
:)

P. S. There is an updated audio and MIDI driver for the Yamaha Motif XS8 specifically for Mac OS X 10.9, so this might solve the problem with sending MIDI from NOTION 4 to the Yamaha Motif XS8 via two-way USB MIDI . . .

Yamaha Motif XS8 Dowloads (Yamaha Support)
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Re: Midi with my Yamaha Motif XS8 - Mac Mavericks

Postby rn2114 » Mon Jan 27, 2014 8:14 pm

Ok. I've been out of touch for a few days about this cuz I've been pulled in other directions. Thanks again fro the great followup post. It got me thinking that I should test every element of the setup like you did and suggested. So, I dug deeper and discovered that the USB midi for the motif is apparently only one way, just into the computer and out of the motif. So, I ditched that route and started back up with the midi cables that I was using. I could get them to work into the computer from the motif, but not out still. So I tested on my other keyboard (also a yamaha) and had the same results. In to computer but not out from computer into the motif.

So I reread the post again and started thinking about the USB midi interface. So far I had been using a set of M audio cables that did the midi to usb transition, but I thought that maybe there was an issue with that setup. Found nothing online about it, but decided to stop into Sweetwater Sound since I was driving by there for some other errands anyway. The tech there pulled up the info in the system on the m-audio cable setup that I was using and in their internal notes on the piece it explained that these cables do not work both ways with Yamaha keyboard, only the one way. (even though they are made to go both.) So, we did some digging and I asked them to point me to an option for an inexpensive box usb/midi interface. I ended up picking up a Focusrite Scarlett2i4, which will work not only with midi but will also input two microphones or xlr based inputs as well for other projects. Took it home, set it all up, tested it going out with the midi audio setup tester on the computer, and tested it for midi in to Notion. All of those things worked out with it attached to the Motif. So I made another test piece in notion (using the midi in to the computer from the motif to notate) and checked all my output settings and tried again to play the piece through the motif with its internal sound bank into its audio output. Still no luck. The motif makes sound when pressing the keys and gives the midi input into notion, but still doesn't receive the midi output from Notion.

So I decided to try another test. I downloaded a trial version of Finale and set it all up, then exported my score from notion into a music xml file, imported it into finale, made the settings to play through external midi device via the Scarlett 2i4, and successfully played the piece through the motif. This to me says that the physical configuration of the setup must work ok, and my issue is in my getting the signal from Notion to the motif.

I figure there are several options for the problem - 1) Notion may not for some reason be actually sending a signal. 2) Notion may be sending a signal, but it is not being recognized by the motif because of some setting on the motif 3) Notion is sending a signal that is just not comparable with the motif. It seems like #2 is not likely, as the signals from Finale were recognized and automatically split to channels based on the staff assignment and the corresponding channel voice assignment in the motif. I guess #1 could be possible if maybe there is some flaw in my installation or I am just missing some setting and messing it up and I guess #3 could be possible, but it seems unlikely that Notion wouldn't communicate in the same language as the motif when Finale clearly does.

It seems like I'm so close to getting it to work, but still a mile away! Does anyone have any more thoughts?

Thank you so much for all of your help!
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Re: Midi with my Yamaha Motif XS8 - Mac Mavericks

Postby rn2114 » Mon Jan 27, 2014 8:30 pm

Another Update - Just tried the same setup on another computer with the same results. Midi will go into notion from the motif through the Scarlett 2i4, but no midi out from Notion to the motif.
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Re: Midi with my Yamaha Motif XS8 - Mac Mavericks

Postby Surfwhammy » Tue Jan 28, 2014 5:35 am

rn2114 wrote:Another Update - Just tried the same setup on another computer with the same results. Midi will go into notion from the motif through the Scarlett 2i4, but no midi out from Notion to the motif.

Do you have the Yamaha standard MIDI In and MIDI Out connected to the Focusrite Scarlett2i4 in Audio MIDI Setup in the way I did it with the Triton Studio (see my previous post)?

Can you post screen captures of NOTION 4 Preferences (General and MIDI tabs) and the MIDI Studio window of Audio MIDI Setup?

THOUGHTS

Rather than do experiments with an elaborate NOTION 4 score, do some experiments with a simple NOTION 4 score that has one External MIDI staff that is assigned to send its MIDI messages to the MIDI In port of the Yamaha MIDI synthesizer on Channel 1 . . .

The audio output of the Yamaha synthesizer needs to be sent to the computer or to a studio monitor system to be heard . . .

For reference, the MIDI Out of the Focusrite Scarlett 2i4 is connected to the MIDI In of the Yamaha synthesizer, and the MIDI in of the Focusrite Scarlett 2i4 is connected to the MIDI out of the Yamaha synthesizer . . .

If everything is connected correctly, then it will work; but all it takes to stop working is for one parameter or connection to be wrong . . .

[NOTE: If you change something in Audio MIDI Setup in the MIDI Studio window, then you need to revisit the MIDI tab of NOTION 4 Preferences to ensure that everything matches, because changes to the MIDI done in Audio MIDI Setup are not automagically updated in NOITON 4 Preferences . . . .]

This is all the comes to mind at present . . .

Lots of FUN!
:)
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Re: Midi with my Yamaha Motif XS8 - Mac Mavericks

Postby Admin » Wed Jan 29, 2014 11:27 am

Dear rn2114,

Have you determined that you are definitely getting MIDI out from Notion?

Try the most basic test you can find. Here is a good place to start:

MIDI Monitor by SNOIZE:

http://www.snoize.com/MIDIMonitor/

This is a free download that can display the messages that are being sent from Notion to a source.

1. Open the MIDI monitor application
2. Start by setting up a new score with an "External MIDI" staff.
3. I recommend setting your MIDI Outputs, as described in the earlier posts, to the IAC Busses for your Mac
4. Place some notes on the staff and press play
5. Watch the output from Notion in MIDI Monitor
6. Then, you can perform the same test with the outputs set to your keyboard

A few other issues to test:

1. Switch the cables - MIDI cables are touchy and can go bad
2. Look to see if your keyboard has new driver updates for Mavericks - it appears that there is a driver update on the Yamaha site for 10.9. Did you do this? Here is the site for it:

http://download.yamaha.com/search/produ ... _id=106377

I don't know if this link will show you the exact link that you need, so once you get there, filter your results by Operating System. The OS 10.9 driver update for the Yamaha Motif XS8 is there. Have you installed it?

That's all I've got for you right now. Keep testing. There is no reason why Notion would be keyboard specific when dealing with MIDI Out.

Regards,

Admin
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Re: Midi with my Yamaha Motif XS8 - Mac Mavericks

Postby rn2114 » Thu Jan 30, 2014 12:53 pm

Ok, downloaded Midi Monitor, and it looks like the midi signal coming out of Notion may be the issue. I set everything up as below:

Screen Shot 2014-01-30 at 11.26.34 AM.png
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Notion preferences for Midi Output on Midi Port A set to the Scarlett 2i4. Score staff is assigned to output to Midi A, Channel 1. Channel 1 on the Motif is set to grand piano. USB cable running from the Mac to the Scarlett, Midi Out cable from Scarlett plugged in to Midi In plug on Motif, Midi Out Cable from Motif to Midi In plug on Scarlett. Studio monitor set up from the quarter inch output on the motif to the quarter input on the monitor. All aspects have power.

When testing all aspects of use:

- Keyboard makes sound when keys are pressed on it.
- Keyboard receives midi input when test mode is used in Midi Audio Setup window.
- Keyboard sends midi into Notion.
- Keyboard sends midi to Finale.
- Keyboard receives midi from Finale and plays corresponding sounds through monitor.
- Midi monitor shows midi action for all of those things.
- No midi out action is recorded from Notion in the Midi Monitor, and no midi from Notion goes to the keyboard.

The Midi Monitor finds the midi from the Motif to Notion, also finds the midi from the test option in Audio Midi Setup to the Motif (and the Motif makes the corresponding test sounds), but doesn't find any midi coming out from Notion to anything when I press play and let the test score run.

I tried the same setup with a test score in Finale and the Motif is getting the midi output from Finale through the Scarlett and playing the assigned channels. This is also all showing up on the Midi Monitor.

I think the image shows all of the midi related settings for Notion that I have seen referenced and found. Does anyone see a setting that should be preventing Notion from sending midi out? Or does anyone see a setting that is missing that I need to be using?

Thanks again for all of your help with this.
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