Example of erratic hickup playback in Notion

[wcreed51]

Again I'd suggest that this is a hardware/driver issue. You should contact Notion tech support for help.

[retnev]

It is doubtful that it is hardware. I now tried it on about 6 machines !
Some of these machines are monsters and not just desktops.

All I can still think of is that it is XP Pro SP3 that is doing it or my version of Miroslav, although lots of users reports it works with XP.
I reinstalled several times, problem remains the same after clean install, so I doubt it is XP.

IK does strange things. E.g if you use an unregistered CSR-Hall copy that comes with Notion, then CSR is programmed to make a lot of white noise hisses but is useful. They seemingly programmed in destruction if registration did not take place. In my case Miroslav is fully registered, but if it has built in "paranoia", it usually goes wrong and starts acting up unintended.

My gut feel is that I should drop Miroslav and go with another orchestra.
I never had any good luck with any of the IK products in the past.

Notion is some of the best software I ever used, I cannot blame them and this is not their problem.

I saw all this work on a Mac with far less powerful hardware. All twenty instruments in the score was no trouble at all, most using Miroslav.

I will take this up with IK, but users usually get to the real bottom of things first, so I thought i'd ask here first.

[Surfwhammy]

I saw all this work on a Mac with far less powerful hardware. All twenty instruments in the score was no trouble at all, most using Miroslav.

Before spending a lot of money on software, this is a good clue to ponder, really . . .

Really!

If you have good reason why 7 would resolve my problem let me know, but I have been sold that "newere Windows is better" ever since Windows 3.1, and it never solved my problems, just created new ones, so I would like to get it working in XP as all the software is advertised to work in XP.

Thank you for the suggestion for Vienna. That sounds good to me.
In your opinion is Vienna written more robust than Ik's Miroslav, as the latter really seems shaky to me.
I did a lot of software development in my life (more real-time and numerical than Gui), and I can see sloppy programming when I use it.
Does Vienna general use less resources and have less hickups ?

The reason for asking about Windows 7 is that Vienna Ensemble Pro 5 requires Windows 7, and it might be a solution, but it comes at the price of getting Windows 7, Vienna Ensemble Pro 5, and making sense of how Vienna Ensemble Pro 5 interacts with NOTION 3 or NOTION 4, so it is a bit of work . . .

By running a 32-bit operating system, everything is limited to 4GB of memory, so having 16GB of memory on the computer serves no useful purpose unless you are running a 64-bit operating system . . .

There is another strategy that might work, and it is to use NOTION 4 (64-bit) with a bridging application like jBridge, where you can run Miroslav Philharmonik via jBridge and work in the 64-bit version of NOTION 4, which in turn requires running the 64-bit version of Windows XP . . .

The only caveat is that there is a note at the JBridge website indicating that you might need to disable "UAC" to use some of the IK Multimedia plug-ins, but there is a link that explains how to do this . . .

The system requirements for both jBridge and NOTION 4 indicate that Windows XP is supported, so while the suggested experiment (see below) might solve the problem, I like the idea of running NOTION 4 in 64-bit mode and using JBridge to interface Miroslav Philharmonik better, since it increases the amount of stuff you can have in a NOTION score by virtue (a) of running the 64-bit version of NOTION 4 and (b) by using JBridge to "bridge" 32-bit only VSTi virtual instruments and plug-ins to the 64-bit version of NOTION 4 . . .

JBridge for Windows

EXPERIMENT

If you can switch to the 64-bit version of Windows XP without a lot of difficulty for doing an experiment, then this might be a solution . . .

It has been a while since I did anything in Windows, but as best as I recall when you are running a 32-bit version of Windows the entire system is limited to 4GB, which includes the operating system and all the applications, and this certainly fits with not being able to have a NOTION 3 score with 20 Miroslav Philharmonik instruments . . .

Having a full orchestra might require using the NOTION 3 mapped flavor of Miroslav Philharmonik as contrasted to a custom flavor where you use individual instances of Miroslav Philharmonik as VSTi virtual instruments, specifically, and configure everything yourself, but one way or another you should be able to use Miroslav Philharmonik in NOTION 3 . . .

As I read the information at the Microsoft Dev Center (MSDN) website regarding memory usage in Windows, when you are running the 32-bit version of Windows XP, an application is limited to at most 2GB of memory, without using options, and this very likely explains the problem you are having . . .

Memory Limits for Windows Releases (Microsoft Windows Dev Center, MSDN)

Summarizing, if it is possible and not so difficult, try running Windows XP in 64-bit mode to determine whether this resolves the problem. It has a 32-bit compatibility sandbox or whatever for running 32-bit applications, so you can run NOTION 3 and Miroslav Philharmonik, both of which are 32-bit only . . .

Lots of FUN!

[retnev]

You are right about XP-32 4G memory address limit.
I doubt however that can be the reason, as this score ran on a Mac with less that 4GB memory!.

I cannot go back to Mac right now as I have too many windows only programs.

I will ask IK, and if that is not resolved, I will go with Vienna. Since all my trouble in the past came from IK products, I must extrapolate and conclude that is where my trouble comes from in this case.

Based on what is happening now and what happened before with other IK software, this must be the reason. It might be just better implemented on Mac.

Anyway, I will ask IK and see what comes up.

[Surfwhammy]

You are right about XP-32 4G memory address limit.
I doubt however that can be the reason, as this score ran on a Mac with less that 4GB memory!.

I cannot go back to Mac right now as I have too many windows only programs.

I will ask IK, and if that is not resolved, I will go with Vienna. Since all my trouble in the past came from IK products, I must extrapolate and conclude that is where my trouble comes from in this case.

Based on what is happening now and what happened before with other IK software, this must be the reason. It might be just better implemented on Mac.

Anyway, I will ask IK and see what comes up.

The way I determined the limits for NOTION 3 on the Mac was to do a series of simple experiments where I started with a NOTION 3 score that had only one staff, which was assigned to one of the IK Multimedia VSTi virtual instruments, and then I increased the number of staves one at a time until problems started occurring, with the result that approximately 50 was the upper limit but strange things would happen with that many VSTi virtual instruments, so I reduced the total number to 25, and this worked nicely so long as I did not add VST effects plug-ins, although I could have 1 or 2 not so heavy VST effects plug-ins but usually did not have any VST effects plug-ins, since it is easier to do the effects plug-ins work in the DAW application . . .

The experiments included checking the way ReWire behaved with Digital Performer (MOTU), which is another reason for the "20 to 25" staves rule, and the rule applies regardless of whether ReWire is used, so it is not a limit imposed to allow ReWire. And it happens with Kontakt 5 (Native Instruments) and other VSTi virtual instruments, so it is not an isolated IK Multimedia virtual instrument limitation. Primarily, it depends on the memory and other resource footprint of the VSTi virtual instrument, its engine, and the requirements of the sampled sound libraries, but as noted this is the way it works on the Mac, and everything tends to work very nicely on the Mac . . .

Doing it this way uses the scientific method, and it focuses on determining facts, which is the only practical way to solve this type of problem . . .

If you plan to use Vienna Ensemble Pro 5, then you will need to upgrade to Windows 7, which is fine, but it costs less to get JBridge for Windows and to upgrade to NOTION 4, which you can run in 64-bit mode and use Miroslav Philharmonik via JBridge . . .

[NOTE: I really like the audio demos for the Epic Orchestra (Vienna Symphonic Library), which sounds very realistic. You will need a USB dongle (Vienna Key or USB eLicensor from Steinberg or Arturia) and corresponding licensing software. Generally, I do not like dongles, but Reason (Propellerhead) and MachFive 3 (MOTU) require USB dongles, so have two of them, which is a bit annoying because the permanently occupy two USB ports, but there was nothing I can do to avoid it, so I relented, and it has the advantage of not requiring re-inputting registration codes when the operating system is upgraded, which I suppose is a bonus. . . ]

Vienna Ensemble Pro 5 System Requirements (Vienna Symphonic Library)

Another useful bit of information, which is based on recent posts by IK Multimedia personnel in the IK Multimedia FORUM, is that the SampleTank 3 is not so far from being released, and it provides 64-bit VSTi virtual instrument support for all the current IK Multimedia virtual instrument sampled sound libraries, although there also are new sampled sound libraries, as well, which from a practical perspective maps to using SampleTank 3 as the 64-bit VSTi virtual instrument for the Miroslav Philharmonik sampled sound library, which in turn makes it available for use with the 64-bit version of NOTION 4, and so long as you are running in 64-bit mode, you can use all the memory available on your computer . . .

Lots of FUN!

[retnev]

Surfhammy,
After reading up,
Vienna Ensemble PRO 5, seems to be exactly what I want. It can run as a remote server, which is nice. I casn run it in one of my rackservers and then use my desktop as a client. that is the right way to do it. Looks like way-way better software than Ik's offering. It seems to be E250 which is not that bad. If it actually works it is worth the cost. Miroslav has been giving me trouble for ages so it already costs much more than Vienna Ensemble PRO 5.

Did you compare Vienna Ensemble PRO 5, against Miroslav on the same piece of music (preferably a classical score).
The built in Notion orchestra has serious phrasing issues and it is not pleasing to listen to. On the same score Miroslav sounds amazing (if and when it works). If I can get a similar quality classical orchestra out of Vienna (that actually works), then it will be worth it.

[Surfwhammy]

Surfhammy,
After reading up,
Vienna Ensemble PRO 5, seems to be exactly what I want. It can run as a remote server, which is nice. I casn run it in one of my rackservers and then use my desktop as a client. that is the right way to do it. Looks like way-way better software than Ik's offering. It seems to be E250 which is not that bad. If it actually works it is worth the cost. Miroslav has been giving me trouble for ages so it already costs much more than Vienna Ensemble PRO 5.

Did you compare Vienna Ensemble PRO 5, against Miroslav on the same piece of music (preferably a classical score).
The built in Notion orchestra has serious phrasing issues and it is not pleasing to listen to. On the same score Miroslav sounds amazing (if and when it works). If I can get a similar quality classical orchestra out of Vienna (that actually works), then it will be worth it.

With your network server skills, I think that Vienna Ensemble Pro 5 will be a nice solution, although it requires upgrading to Windows 7, at which time you also can upgrade to NOTION 4 and run everything in 64-bit mode . . .

The previous version (Vienna Ensemble Pro 4) supports Windows XP, but it costs about the same as Vienna Ensemble Pro 5, which is the current version, so if you can run Windows 7, I think the experience will be better, and running it on a rackserver to stream audio to your primary computer should be very nice . . .

[NOTE: This online store has the system requirements for Vienna Ensemble Pro 4, and it is is easier to find than the information at the Vienna Symphonic Library website, but it appears that Vienna Symphonic Library has switched everything to Vienna Ensemble Pro 5, which makes Vienna Ensemble Pro 5 the smarter option . . . ]

Vienna Ensemble Pro 4 (ILIO)

And you can run Miroslav Philharmonik with Vienna Ensemble Pro 4/5, as well . . .

I do not have any of the Vienna Symphonic Library products, so I am judging it primarily by reading posts in this FORUM where folks report that it works nicely, but I like the way the audio demos for the Epic Orchestra sound, so I also am judging it by the audio demos . . .

I read about the various Vienna Symphonic Library products every once in a while, and I am intrigued by the network server functionality of Vienna Ensemble Pro 5 on the Mac, where it also works on the same computer; and at one time I was considering it as a way to run the 32-bit IK Multimedia virtual instruments when working with the 64-bit version of NOTION 4, but after pondering it for a while, I decided that since I have Kontakt 5 (Native Instruments) and MachFive 3 (MOTU), both of which support 64-bit mode, it made more sense to abandon the IK Multimedia virtual instruments until IK Multimedia releases the 64-bit version of SampleTank, which is what I have been doing with good results, and now I know a bit more about the way Kontakt 5 and MachFive 3 work, and both of them have very nice sampled sound libraries . . .

After experimenting with Twin 2 (FabFilter Software Instruments) and Addictive Drums (XLN Audio), they provide a nice set of synthesizers and drumkits, which is one of the things I really like about the IK Multimedia sampled sound libraries--in particular the Hofner "Beatle" Bass, Studio Dry drumkit, and some of the Sonik Synth synthesizers--and MachFIve 3 has a nice Fender Jazz Bass that I like, so the only time I use the IK Multimedia VSTi virtual instruments now is to help people in this FORUM, which is fine . . .

There are some affordable Vienna Symphony Library products, but I added the cost of all their products, and the total was somewhere in the range of $20,000 (US), which is way above anything I can afford at present, although I think that it probably is very high quality stuff . . .

Everything is much better in 64-bit mode, because the 32-bit application workspace limitation is gone, hence you actually can use all the memory available on your computer . . .

There always are upper limits, but in the 64-bit universe the limits are generous, and it is not such a demanding concern . . .

The overall goal is to be able to focus on music rather messing with computer stuff . . .

Lots of FUN!

[retnev]

It seems that I will have to pay about E600 for what I need. That is fair as it pays for itself, since I dont have to change all my other XP software which will be more than $1000.

I really dislike working with multiple PCs for every application. Having Server based software brings me back to *nix distributed networks and client/server based applications which is way more rugged and nice.

I cleared with them that I can use Notion on Xp on the client if their software rusn on a separate server running 7.

It really is the way to go, but takes some expense.
The outdated, "all the software runs on the client" as we have with windows mindset is just too much of a drag and the wrong direction.

[Surfwhammy]

It seems that I will have to pay about E600 for what I need. That is fair as it pays for itself, since I dont have to change all my other XP software which will be more than $1000.

I really dislike working with multiple PCs for every application. Having Server based software brings me back to *nix distributed networks and client/server based applications which is way more rugged and nice.

I cleared with them that I can use Notion on Xp on the client if their software runs on a separate server running 7.

It really is the way to go, but takes some expense.
The outdated, "all the software runs on the client" as we have with windows mindset is just too much of a drag and the wrong direction.

This looks to be an excellent solution, and based on my understanding of the overall technology, it provides advanced capabilities that can be very useful in the future, as well . . .

There are FORUM members who run Vienna Ensemble Pro 5 (Vienna Symphonic Library) on Windows machines but use Mac computers for NOTION, which is yet another functionality that Vienna Ensemble Pro 5 supports . . .

If my recollection is accurate, when you have the required licenses and servers, you can run Vienna Ensemble Pro 5 on multiple servers and create a "super streaming audio server system" or whatever one wants to call it, which at least in theory maps to having a separate dedicated network server for each section of a symphonic orchestra, all of which fed NOTION or a DAW application . . .

[NOTE: The Vienna Ensemble Pro 5 Manual is available for download at the following link, and it specifically refers to the ability to have multiple Vienna Ensemble Pro 5 servers ("slaves") that are networked to create what I called a ""super streaming audio server system", and there is a high-level supervisor application that coordinates and controls everything, Additionally the various slave servers can be a mix of Windows and Mac computers, and with the three licenses that come standard with Vienna Ensemble Pro 5, I think it is accurate to suggest that you can run the software on two of your rack servers to feed the Windows XP machine that you use for NOTION 3, although I think that one rack server should be able to handle both the Epic Orchestra (Vienna Symphonic Library) and Miroslav Philharmonik (IK Multimedia), which might be interesting and probably is not difficult to do. NOTION 3 will continue to be constrained by the 32-bit application workspace limitations, but a good bit of the audio generating work will be offloaded to Vienna Ensemble Pro 5 . . . ]

Vienna Ensemble Pro 5 Manual (Vienna Symphonic Library)

Lots of FUN!