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Misc questions for keyboard players using Notion 4

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Misc questions for keyboard players using Notion 4

Postby ChrisHeinen » Wed Sep 11, 2013 1:46 pm

Hi,

New Notion 4 user here... Any keyboard players using Notion 4? If so, here are some questions for you:

1. What do you do about the fact that Notion 4 does not record sustain pedal events unless you are specifically recording when using the "sequencer staff" option? Do you just always stay in the sequencer staff and not use the normal notation staff?

2. What do you do about the fact that the sequencer staff does not display the sustain pedal OFF CC events (it only displays the sustain pedal ON CC events)? Do you just live with it?

3. What do you do about the fact that when you use "Tools - Convert to Notation" that Notion 4 does not convert the pedal DOWN/UP events into their grand staff pedal markings? Do you just manually enter the markings after you record each pass? This seems like a significant workflow issue depending on how much you depend on using a piano sustain pedal and how many recording (and re-recording) passes you tend to make when developing your score.

FYI - I asked tech support about these issues and they said they would pass it to the developers as a feature request in the "hopes that we might have it available in the future". So, I am hopeful that this turns out to be true.

Thanks in advance for any tips you have on this...

CH
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Re: Misc questions for keyboard players using Notion 4

Postby Admin » Fri Sep 13, 2013 1:02 pm

Hi,

This is an ongoing issue that is in the development cue and is in the scope for future releases. I am sorry that you are having difficulty.

The way that I have handled this matter is to add the markings after the passes. The shortcut is to toggle the 8 key on the numbers above the letters on your keyboard. 8 toggles between Pedal on and Pedal off markings. It is not ideal, but it is reasonable until the matter can be resolved.

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Re: Misc questions for keyboard players using Notion 4

Postby ChrisHeinen » Sat Sep 14, 2013 4:31 pm

Thanks for the info. Yes, I noticed in the tooltip that the 8 key toggles the pedal markings and I have been using that.

After spending more time dropping in pedal On/Off events into a piece that I had originally created using a sustain pedal, I've discovered a rather big problem for me with regard to pedal markup and timing.

Currently in Notion the pedal markings are "quantized" to the existing notes in the staff. This makes it impossible to add off-to-on pedal events so that they are timed like the original performance. In other words, you can add a pedal off followed by a pedal on, but you have to drop each event in the score and have each line up with an existing note/chord. You cannot tell Notion that these two events belong BETWEEN existing notes/chords (like would happen for real when playing a keyboard).

I'm guessing that the reason the pedal markings are visually "quantized" to the notes is because that is the way musicians are used to interpreting pedal marks in sheet music. The trouble for me as a player is that I'm trying to use Notion as a playback tool and not just a notation tool. Proper timing of pedal OFF/ON events within the framework of when the notes are being played is critical for accurate playback.

I really hope that the developers take this into account and allow the option of having pedal marks sit anywhere between notes instead of always quantizing them.

Thanks,
CH
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Re: Misc questions for keyboard players using Notion 4

Postby Admin » Mon Sep 16, 2013 12:22 pm

Good point CH,

Thanks for the post. If you are wanting to get so in depth for play back, there is a way to handle this that is going to be a workaround for what you are trying to accomplish until we have the "Pedal Marking record as MIDI" capability.

First, you can also set Pedal Markings to a bar line. (This is not so much of a workaround, but allows you to extend Pedal Ups to the ends of Notes. Thus, it is slightly less quantized.)

Second, if you are using a VST piano, if you set up a secondary "hidden for print" staff that is outputting to the same instrument channel, you can place rests in subdivisions on that staff to place the pedal markings where you want them to go.

Pedal Markings.png
Pedal Markings.png (17.02 KiB) Viewed 20505 times


I know that this is a bit more work, but I suppose you are striving for playback perfection so it works. Let me demonstrate. In the picture above, I have created an instrument change on a basic staff that is pointing to a pre-exising instrument in the score. Now that they are outputting to the same instrument, I have set up the pedal markings in such a way that they are timed to the play notes in the first staff, but place more closely to where I want the playback of the Pedal to happen.

This only works on VST instruments because you can send all of the data over the same MIDI channel. It is not pretty, so you will want to hide the staff for print, but playback will come back the way that you want it to. Maybe you are not using a VST, and for that I cannot help currently.

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Re: Misc questions for keyboard players using Notion 4

Postby ChrisHeinen » Mon Sep 16, 2013 7:35 pm

That looks pretty slick! I'll try that technique this week. I didn't know you could direct MIDI data from multiple tracks like that!

FWIW, as a proposed way to bring the good things about the sequencer overlay hybrid view and the good things about the notation view's quantized pedal marks together, how about when we press TAB to switch into sequencer overlay mode, Notion 4 would display drag-able colored horizontal bars across pedal down and pedal up symbols, like it does across the note heads?

It seems to me that if it could do this, and then let us click and drag these colored horizontal bars on the pedal marks, (in a like manner to the way we can now click and drag the horizontal bars across the note heads), then this would be a way for Notion to be able to tell that we want the pedal on or off to occur before or after the quantized pedal symbol in the sequencer overlay view. Having drag-able bars at pedal marks in sequencer overlay mode would then allow us to toggle back and forth between quantized pedal marks (in notation view) and the tweaked pedal timing events (in sequencer overlay view).

Just a thought for the designers/developers...

Thanks,
CH
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Re: Misc questions for keyboard players using Notion 4

Postby ChrisHeinen » Fri Sep 20, 2013 9:21 pm

Hi Admin,

I tried the technique outlined in your last post (from Sep 16) but had no luck. I set it up just as you instructed, but the pedal OFF events from the "pedal staff" had no effect on the sustained notes on the "vst staff".

Thinking that maybe I had something wrong in routing the MIDI channels, I double-checked my work to made sure that I could at least put NOTES on the "pedal staff" and observed that yes, the notes were making it to the "vst staff" properly.

I also watched the GUI on the VST (I was using SampleTank at the time) to understand which channel(s) the notes and pedal events were firing. Notes went exactly where I told them to go when I set up the Instrument Change in Notion, but pedal events from the "pedal staff" never caused any of the MIDI activity indicators in the GUI to indicate that these messages were coming through on any MIDI channel.

I'm out of ideas on what to troubleshoot at this point. If anyone reading this thread has something I could check, I'd appreciate any feedback...

Thanks,
CH
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Re: Misc questions for keyboard players using Notion 4

Postby Surfwhammy » Sat Sep 21, 2013 6:25 am

ChrisHeinen wrote:I also watched the GUI on the VST (I was using SampleTank at the time) to understand which channel(s) the notes and pedal events were firing. Notes went exactly where I told them to go when I set up the Instrument Change in Notion, but pedal events from the "pedal staff" never caused any of the MIDI activity indicators in the GUI to indicate that these messages were coming through on any MIDI channel.


A FEW ESSENTIALLY RANDOM BUT SOMEWHAT RELATED THOUGHTS


I am doing a bit of guessing on this, since I am learning about MIDI and making what I think is excellent progress but not so much progress that I actually understand much of anything about MIDI in an expert way, which also is the case with "rules", but there are other folks on the FORUM who are quite skilled in MIDI and "rules" and might be able to provide some additional help . . .

Based on my current understanding, "rules" are used to fine-tune MIDI messages--specifically control changes ("CC") and various parameters--and I have no problems reading "rules", since (a) it is XML code and (b) I have been doing software engineering for decades, but I taught myself how to play instruments, and while I know how to do various playing techniques I do not have the techniques mapped to specific names used in formal music theory, hence for the most part if it is not a knob on a Fender or Marshall amplifier; an effects pedal; or an echo unit, then "Best wishes!", where as an example even though I have read the definition of "legato" many times, I have no immediately conscious idea what it is, but so what . . .

So what!

Yet, if Billy Gibbons did a bit of legato in a ZZ Top song, and I know the song, then all one needs to say is "Do the syrupy thing Billy Gibbons does to accent the verses in 'Planet Of Women'", and I know what to do, which admittedly is a bit strange with respect to terminology, but it works for me, and at some point I might have a mapping of all the formal music theory terminology, which could be quite useful if I need to communicate effectively with a musician who uses the term "fortissimo" rather than "Crank it!" or "Do a Nigel!", really . . .

Nigel from Spinal Tap: "These go to eleven . . ." -- YouTube video

Really! :P

"Planet Of Women" (ZZ Top) -- YouTube music video

On the other hand, if you need help with ReWire 2 on the Mac, then in some respects I am the source of all knowledge in the known universe . . . :ugeek:

SOLUTION FOR MIDI PIANO PEDALS FUNCTIONALITY

After doing a search in the Miroslav Philharmonik User Guide on "pedal" and studying the standalone Miroslav Philharmonik user interface, I did not find any specific information about piano pedals, so one possibility is that Miroslav Philharmonik does not support piano pedals . . .

In contrast, Addictive Keys has pedals and supports MIDI messages for pedals, as you can see in the following screen capture of its standalone user interface, which also is what you see when you are using it as a VSTi virtual instrument in NOTION 4 when you click on its name in the NOTION 4 Mixer, as you know . . .

[NOTE: I have the full version of Addictive Keys, so this screen capture is from the full version, not the FREE version. The Studio Grand piano in the FREE version might provide MIDI functionality for pedals, in which case it will look like the screen capture . . . ]

Image

[NOTE: There is more detailed information on the pedals functionality of Addictive Keys in the "AK Tutorial Edit Page" video at the following link . . . ]

Product Videos (XLN Audio)

The Addictive Keys pedals functionality is available for some of the pianos but not all of them, so it depends on which piano is selected. Nevertheless, when pedals are supported, they will respond to the standard MIDI pedal control change (CC) messages or whatever is used . . .

There is a FREE version of Addictive Keys, and it might have a piano that provides pedals functionality. It works in NOTION 4, and the full version has some very nice pianos, some of which provide functionality for pedals via MIDI messages . . .

[NOTE: If you watch the video carefully, you can see the performer using one of the MIDI piano pedals, and you can see it on the Addictive Keys interface on the computer, as well. In some respects, Addictive Keys is a bit expensive for just a few pianos, but their pianos sound very good, as is the case with the various Addictive Drums drumkits and Latin percussion instruments . . . ]

Addictive Keys FREE (XLN Audio)

There also is a FREE version of Addictive Drums, which is another very nice XLN Audio product that works in NOTION 4 . . .

Addictive Drums FREE (XLN Audio)

As with nearly every type of third-party virtual instrument, it makes a bit of sense to get on the mailing list and to check the website every so often, because they have discount promotions and sales every so often, which maps to saving money, so that you can get more stuff when it is discounted, and unless one happens to be a millionaire, this is an excellent strategy, if only because there is so much stuff that it is a bit mind-boggling . . .

Based on my experience, none of the third-party virtual instrument companies bombard you with emails when you get on their mailing list, but every few months they send an email announcing a discount promotion or sale on something, which is helpful if you are not in a hurry . . .

For example, every Thanksgiving holiday for the past two or so years, Native Instruments has had a one week 50 percent discount promotion and sale for Kontakt 5, and this is how I got Kontakt 5 or half price two years ago. It is nearly October 2013, and if you are thinking about getting Kontakt 5, then I would get on their mailing list and wait until the Thanksgiving holiday to see if they have another one-week 50 percent discount promotion and sale . . .

SUMMARY

I think it makes a bit of sense to make the inference that a virtual instrument engine will respond to MIDI pedal messages only if it provides specific MIDI aware functionality for pedals, and while I find MIDI support for pedals functionality in Addictive Keys, I do not find any mention of it in the Miroslav Philharmonik User Guide or any visual reference to pedals in the Miroslav Philharmonik user interface . . .

Lots of FUN! :)
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Re: Misc questions for keyboard players using Notion 4

Postby ChrisHeinen » Sat Sep 21, 2013 8:00 am

As I mentioned in my last post, the VST I am using for this test is SampleTank. Its playback engine responds to pedal on/off events. I can hear it respond in the VST when I play live via MIDI keyboard/pedal, and when I add pedal on/off events to a staff in Notion. The part that doesn't work (and we realize this is just as a work-around to a more fundamental problem) is when trying to add pedal on/off events in a staff and trying to route that to another staff where a VST instrument (which DOES handle pedal events normally) is running.

Thanks for trying to help, though.

CH
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Re: Misc questions for keyboard players using Notion 4

Postby Surfwhammy » Sat Sep 21, 2013 10:32 am

ChrisHeinen wrote:As I mentioned in my last post, the VST I am using for this test is SampleTank. Its playback engine responds to pedal on/off events. I can hear it respond in the VST when I play live via MIDI keyboard/pedal, and when I add pedal on/off events to a staff in Notion. The part that doesn't work (and we realize this is just as a work-around to a more fundamental problem) is when trying to add pedal on/off events in a staff and trying to route that to another staff where a VST instrument (which DOES handle pedal events normally) is running.

Thanks for trying to help, though.

CH


I tried it with the full version of Addictive Keys running as a VSTi virtual instrument in NOTION 4 (64-bit), and the pedal notation in NOTION 4 does not appear to do anything, so there must be something else involved in the solution Admin suggested . . .

For reference, with Addictive Keys running as a VSTi virtual instrument in NOTION 4, when notes are playing I can press the pedals in the Addictive Keys user interface with the mouse and they respond, so the pedals are working but they are not receiving MIDI control changes from NOTION 4 . . .

Perhaps the key is to use custom rules?

This is all that comes to mind at present . . . :?
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Re: Misc questions for keyboard players using Notion 4

Postby ChrisHeinen » Sat Sep 21, 2013 7:08 pm

I guess at this point I will wait for feedback from Admin as to next steps. Next steps may be to wait for an upcoming maintenance release, though. Kind of bummed, but still having fun with Notion.

It's hard to describe the pesky nature of this problem to folks who may not be keyboard players. And, I admit that this is a subtlety that is limited to basically ONLY keyboard players, but when you've grown up using a sustain pedal when developing your music phrasing, and suddenly that functionality no longer gets handled by the app during playback, you really notice it!

Thanks for brainstorming...

CH
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