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Misc questions for keyboard players using Notion 4

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Re: Misc questions for keyboard players using Notion 4

Postby Surfwhammy » Sun Sep 22, 2013 6:51 am

I did a few more experiments and everything is working nicely with Addictive Keys, which is fabulous . . .

N4 External MIDI Addictive Keys Sustain Pedal -- YouTube video

Fabulous! :D

BACKGROUND

As best as I can determine, NOTION 4 sends CC (11) messages, and these are the correct messages for the various pedals, as shown in the following screen capture of the relevant table in the MIDI specification for MIDI Messages provided by the MIDI Manufacturers Association . . .

Image
MIDI Message Control Number (2nd Byte)

[SOURCE: MIDI Messages (MIDI Manufacturers Association) ]

If I can devise a way to monitor the MIDI message traffic, then I can do some experiments to determine what is happening, but at present while I have a KORG Triton Music Workstation (88 Keys), I do not have an expression pedal for it, since the way I taught myself how to play grand piano is a bit beyond strange--although it is fascinating--and it never occurred to me that pedals were important, hence (a) I never thought about being able to use piano pedals and (b) I never got any piano pedals . . .

THE SURFWHAMMY METHOD FOR LEARNING HOW TO PLAY GRAND PIANO PROFICIENTLY WITHOUT NEEDING TO PRACTICE

As a child I had a few hours of piano lessons, and at one point I could play "Mary Had A Little Lamb" and "Row, Row, Row Your Boat" from sheet music if I worked at it, but overall it was easier not to use the sheet music and to do it "by ear"; and other than being shown some scales and arpeggios, this was the extent of my formal piano training, but there always was a piano in the house . . .

Sometime later when I was in garage bands, I taught myself major, minor, and seventh chords in each key using three or four fingers; and while these were simple chords, I also taught myself the inverted flavor of a few of the more useful major chords, and I did this primarily so that I could teach a friend how to play rudimentary electric piano (a) so that he could be in the band and (b) because he had a car, and for the most part this was the extent of the early phase of my piano training, although skipping forward nearly two decades I had another musical group and there was a keyboard player who was skilled in learning parts from records and reading sheet music but had no clue how to play ad hoc Rock and Roll piano solos, so after trying to explain the concept entirely too many times, I got a bit annoyed with having to explain two facts (a) that so long as you play a lot of notes very quickly and look like you are having FUN and know what you are doing, it does not matter what you play and (b) that thinking about it just makes it impossible to do, and I showed him how it works, which mostly was something I learned by watching the way John Lennon played the keyboard part for "I'm Down" when Lennon obviously was "hopped up" on amphetamines and having a grand bit of FUN doing what in the lead guitar universe colloquially is called "chick'n pick'n" . . .

"I'm Down" (Beatles) -- Shea Stadium 1965 -- YouTube music video

And with this foundation, a few years later I had the idea that I could teach myself how to play grand piano solely by thinking about it in a specifically directed way that involved intentional dreaming, which I did for the next 20 years, during which time I played an actual grand piano for perhaps one hour each year as a "pop quiz" to determine how much progress I was making . . .

Beginning approximately 10 years ago I started doing old-time radio science fiction and needed some outer space noises, so I got an Alesis ION Analog Modelling Synthesizer, which was excellent for making outer space noises, but in a bit of serendipity I noticed that all the white keys sounded good when played to accompany some rhythm guitar cords I had recorded earlier, where by this time rhythm and lead guitar were my primary instruments (also self-taught), and this was quite interesting . . .

A few years later I got a drumkit and started playing drums, and all this was done during the time when I had decided to do everything only one time based on misunderstanding something an audio engineer told me about Paul McCartney when he was recording "R.A.M", which was that McCartney did everything on the first or second take, which I quite mistakenly thought applied to everything when as I learned sometime later it actually applied only to some harmony parts for one or two songs and did not apply to everything, but I thought it was cool, and for several years I did everything only one or at most two times, which as I now understand was the first step in rewiring the frontal eye fields region of my brain to create additional neural pathways to the auditory cortex, which (a) is the only way one can play notes as rapidly as one note every 25 milliseconds and (b) curiously maps to this being done literally at the top of the head, since this is where the frontal eye fields region of the brain is located, specifically being the region bounded by Brodmann areas 4, 6, and 8, which in turn provides a surprising insight into the adage regarding musicians playing parts "off the top of their heads" . . .

The next major step involved realizing that the white and black keys of a grand piano keyboard are like tiny drums, cymbals, and Latin percussion instruments, hence instead of trying in any immediately conscious way to compose and play elaborate chords, melodies, harmonies, and counterpoint in real-time on the fly, all one needs to do is temporarily to suspend nearly all immediately conscious thought and then to play based on the subconscious mind being in control, since after thinking about playing grand piano for 20 or so years, this effectively embedded the required information in the subconscious mind, which as we now know has considerably more information than we can possibly imagine, and the following bit of grand piano composed and played in real-time on the fly on the first take is an excellent example, where for reference it is one grand piano part but run through a set of cascading echo units, since it is more FUN to play with echoes . . .

[NOTE: The kick drum and electric bass are loud, since I needed to hear them to compose and play the grand piano part. The grand piano actually is the KORG Triton Music Workstation (88 Keys) with a stereo grand piano preset which includes a bit of what I call synthesized "fog" that occurs when notes are played slowly, which is heard at the start of the song . . . ]

"Starlight" (The Surf Whammys) -- Kick Drum, Electric Bass, Fog, Grand Piano -- MP3

THOUGHTS

I think that NOTION 4 sends CC 11 MIDI messages, so the key to the puzzle is to determine how it is done, and toward the goal of making sense of this stuff, it occurred to me that I could export a NOTION 4 staff as MIDI and then examine the MIDI file (".mid") using MidiKit, which is a stellar application for the Mac that reads MIDI files . . .

And while I did not find any obvious pedal messages, there were MIDI 011 Expression velocity messages, all of which had the velocity set to "90", and these are Control Change (CC) messages, which confirms that NOTION 4 is sending CC messages. It is possible that the pedal messages are there somewhere, perhaps in other parts of the messages, which after doing a bit of reading appears to be the case, because (a) I can play the MIDI in the exported MIDI file from MidiKit on the standalone version of Addictive Keys via a "virtual MIDI cable"; (b) the pedal sustain ON and OFF actions occur at the correct times; (c) and I notice that there are "064" values for the MIDI note messages, where "064" is the value for sustain pedal commands (see the table, above), where the third number most likely indicates whether the sustain pedal is ON or OFF for the particular note, as shown in the following screen capture of part of the MidiKit edit window, where the entire set of notes exported from NOTION 4 are shown in the first screen capture . . .

Image
NOTION 4: Notes selected for MIDI Export

Image
MidiKit Edit Window ~ MIDI file exported from NOTION 4

Since the exported section begins with the sustain pedal OFF and then after four notes the sustain pedal is ON, it appears that the third set of data field values {191,192,193} correspond to sustain pedal OFF, while the larger values correspond to sustain pedal ON, and that instead of issuing separate CC messages for sustain pedal actions, the pedal actions are combined with the Note messages, at least the way MidiKit displays the messages . . .

This is what MidiSpy reports when it is observing MidiKit playing the standalone version of Addictive Keys using the MIDI file exported from NOTION 4, where MidiSpy is another handy program for the Mac . . .

Image
MidiSpy: MIDI message traffic to Addictive Keys

~ ~ ~ Continued in the next post ~ ~ ~
The Surf Whammys

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Re: Misc questions for keyboard players using Notion 4

Postby Surfwhammy » Sun Sep 22, 2013 6:52 am

~ ~ ~ Continued from the previous post ~ ~ ~

SUMMARY

It works for both VSTi virtual instruments and with NOTION 4 External MIDI staves sending MIDI messages to standalone virtual instruments, provided the VSTi virtual instrument or its standalone version support MIDI pedal messages . . .

Lots of FUN! :ugeek:

P. S. As best as I can determine, the reason it was not working previously was due to my having the "Midi Modulation (CC01)" and "CC Value ~ Learn" options set in the X-mod Source section of Addictive Keys Session Settings view, which apparently blocked the MIDI pedal action information NOTION 4 was sending . . .

And it also works nicely when you use the 32-bit version of NOTION 4 and a NOTION 4 External MIDI staff sending its MIDI messages to SampleTank 2.5.4 (IK Multimedia) via an IAC Driver "virtual MIDI cable" using Channel 1 of MIDI Port A, as shown in the following YouTube video, which is fabulous . . .

NOTION 4 (32-Bit) SampleTank External MIDI Mac -- YouTube video

Fabulous! :)

P. S. If you are doing digital music production on the Mac, I can explain exactly how to do this, so let me know if you need help with this. It should work the same in Windows, but I cannot verify that it does . . .
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Re: Misc questions for keyboard players using Notion 4

Postby ChrisHeinen » Sun Sep 22, 2013 7:02 pm

Interesting videos. How does that technique work when there are two staves (one with notes and the other with pedal events)? That is the context of the scenario Admin was proposing.
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Re: Misc questions for keyboard players using Notion 4

Postby Surfwhammy » Mon Sep 23, 2013 4:30 am

ChrisHeinen wrote:Interesting videos. How does that technique work when there are two staves (one with notes and the other with pedal events)? That is the context of the scenario Admin was proposing.


At present I am not having any success getting the second staff technique to work, which includes with Addictive Keys Studio Grand running as a VSTi virtual instrument; Kontakt 5 running as a VSTi virtual instrument; and Addictive Keys Studio Grand running standalone where the first staff is an External MIDI staff, as is the second staff . . .

I have the MOTU 828mk3 Hybrid external digital audio and MIDI interface running; and I verified that the IAC Driver is online and has the IAC Bus 1 operational . . .

The pedal markings work when they are on the original staff, but they do not work on the second staff that is assigned via SHIFT+i . . .

I am running NOTION 4.0.329 64-bit in Mac OS X 10.8.5 (Mountain Lion) . . .

I am not using any custom rules . . .

THOUGHTS

Two possibilities come to mind:

(1) Admin is running a different version of NOTION 4, perhaps a pre-release version . . .

(2) Admin is using custom rules . . .

And when I examine the exported MIDI file ("*.mid"), I do not see any 64 Hold Pedal 1 control change MIDI messages . . .

If it works, then there is more information that at present I cannot guess . . .

Lots of FUN! :?
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Re: Misc questions for keyboard players using Notion 4

Postby ChrisHeinen » Mon Sep 23, 2013 4:42 pm

I see. Well, in any event thanks for doing what you did and documenting it. I didn't really see how mult-channel MIDI could work (functionally).

FWIW I started this thread to get feedback on how keyboard players are living with the current implementation of Notion with regard to pedal timing and I didn't expect all the helpful/creative solutions here.

The lack of feedback from keyboard players on this topic is telling me that (gulp) I'm the only one who is obsessing over pedal timing!

As I mentioned in one of my early posts in this thread, eventually I'd like to be able to tweak the pedal event timing somehow (obviously without having to leave the staff that the instrument is on), but if it's not meant to be at this time, then that's cool...

Thanks,
CH
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Re: Misc questions for keyboard players using Notion 4

Postby Admin » Tue Sep 24, 2013 1:23 pm

Okay, so I just want to check and see if maybe my picture has a mistake in it. I believe that the picture that I sent had the Pedal On in one staff, and the Pedal off in another. This is the only thing that I can think of on the Notion side that could be causing the problem. If you are still having an issue, I would think that there is either something going on with Sample Tank, or the MIDI Channels are not set up properly.

If you would like, post a score. I have Sample Tank and I will try it out if you can send me an example.

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Re: Misc questions for keyboard players using Notion 4

Postby ChrisHeinen » Tue Sep 24, 2013 7:39 pm

Thanks, Admin. Attached is a test score...
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Test Pedal Events.notion
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Re: Misc questions for keyboard players using Notion 4

Postby Admin » Wed Sep 25, 2013 1:18 pm

Hi Chris,

In the test file that you sent me, it looks like the instrument change that you did, did not change the two staves to the same output. I am having trouble loading IK Sample Tank currently, but your instrument's ID's are different on the two staves.

They need to be the same and they need to both point to Sample Tank.

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Re: Misc questions for keyboard players using Notion 4

Postby BrundleFly » Wed Sep 25, 2013 2:54 pm

ChrisHeinen wrote:I guess at this point I will wait for feedback from Admin as to next steps. Next steps may be to wait for an upcoming maintenance release, though. Kind of bummed, but still having fun with Notion.

It's hard to describe the pesky nature of this problem to folks who may not be keyboard players. And, I admit that this is a subtlety that is limited to basically ONLY keyboard players, but when you've grown up using a sustain pedal when developing your music phrasing, and suddenly that functionality no longer gets handled by the app during playback, you really notice it!
CH


Hi Chris, I feel you pain. I came to Notion by way of a promotional tie-in with SONAR which is my main composing environment. I immediately ran into these and other issues with sustain pedal functionality, and decided it wasn't going to work for me, as I'm primarily a keyboard composer, and I compose mostly by improvising in real time.

Until all of this can be worked out in Notion without resorting to impractically awkward workarounds, I think your best course of action would be to get a conventional Digital Audio Workstation package like SONAR - or perhaps more appropriately, Studio One, since Presonus now owns Notion - compose and play back your keyboard parts in the DAW, and Rewire Notion into the DAW for playing back other parts written in Notion.

This is what I'm doing, and it works reasonably well, though it comes with its own awkwardness in setting up projects and moving back and forth between the two interfaces. And if you "write" primarily by recording MIDI as I do, I think you'll find it much more pleasant and efficient to record in the DAW, and import MIDI parts into Notion for additional scoring or printing as needed.

Cheers,
Dave
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Re: Misc questions for keyboard players using Notion 4

Postby Surfwhammy » Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:36 pm

Admin wrote:Hi Chris,

In the test file that you sent me, it looks like the instrument change that you did, did not change the two staves to the same output. I am having trouble loading IK Sample Tank currently, but your instrument's ID's are different on the two staves.

They need to be the same and they need to both point to Sample Tank.

-Admin


I get the same results as Chris . . .

QUESTION: Is there a specific procedure for ensuring that the Instrument ID's are the same for the two staves and that they both point to SampleTank correctly?

TEST PROCEDURE

The test procedure I am using begins with setting NOTION 4.0.329 to run in 32-bit mode on the Mac Pro running Mac OS X 10.8.5 (Mountain Lion) . . .

Then I start NOTION 4.0.329 and add a single SampleTank staff to a blank score, followed by adding a Basic Staff . . .

I exit Score Setup and save the score . . .

Then I click on the Basic Staff and do a SHIFT+I, where I show "All Instruments" and then select SampleTank, followed by clicking on "OK", which turns the mouse pointer to the text indicating that it now represents "SampleTank 2.x", and I click on the Basic Staff to set it to point to SampleTank . . .

But in another test I do the SHIFT+I on the SampleTank staff but use it when selected to set the Basic Staff, and it makes no difference where the SHIFT+I is done, since the results are the same, and it does not work . . .

When both pedal actions (up and down) are on the original SampleTank staff, it works; but when the pedal actions are on the Basic Staff or are split between the original SampleTank staff and the Basic Staff, only the pedal actions on the original SampleTank staff work . . .

QUESTION: Is there another way to do this that works?

Lots of FUN . . . :?
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