NOTION Music Forum

Hi i know there' s been a thread on 16th notes recording.

Regarding the drop down menu with min durations...30ms 60ms etc..

What do these figures mean for a musician? I understand what quarter, semi quaver is...but why use such vague system such as numbers? It's only adds to confuse me. Maybe i'm missing the point but would'nt it be more practical to use a quantize chart..? Say i wanted to record 16ths...i choose the 16ths symbol. done. Or i'm i missing something crucial here? Why talk in numbers when we work in note values?

Thanks for listening to my waffle!

Pin

Jaws75 wrote:Hi i know there' s been a thread on 16th notes recording.

Regarding the drop down menu with min durations...30ms 60ms etc..

What do these figures mean for a musician? I understand what quarter, semi quaver is...but why use such vague system such as numbers? It's only adds to confuse me. Maybe i'm missing the point but would'nt it be more practical to use a quantize chart..? Say i wanted to record 16ths...i choose the 16ths symbol. done. Or i'm i missing something crucial here? Why talk in numbers when we work in note values?

Thanks for listening to my waffle!

Pin

In some respects, making sense of MIDI is about as easy as counting all the grains of sand in the known universe, but there is a bit of logic to it, which is the primary reason that numerical values are used rather than music notation values for some parameters. For reference, I decided a few years ago that I wanted to understand MIDI, and after a lot of reading, studying, and experimenting I am making progress, but in terms of software engineering complexity it is similar to discovering how to write code to do real-time missile guidance, and best wishes on discovering how to do that in a few years. The summary version is that MIDI is as complex as it is powerful, and the practical approach is to keep at it until it starts making sense, which it will after a while . . .

MIDI does not know anything about notes in the sense of whole notes, half notes, quarter notes, eighth notes, and so forth, and MIDI does not do music notation, although it uses quarter notes in a general sense as a reference for mapping numerical values to music notation concepts, where in this respect a "quarter note" or "quaver" is more of a symbolic concept than an absolute entity, which is one way to explain it . . .

It is easier to understand the reason that I refer to a "quarter note" as a symbolic concept when you consider that nearly everything in standard music notation is based on multiples of two, where for example there are no "third notes", "fifth notes", and so forth, which is one of the reasons that I usually do everything in 4/4 time . . .

In other words, it is vastly non-standard to specify a time signature like 5/3, 11/13, 2/9, and so forth, as is the case for fractional time signatures like 4.25/3.75, 12.33/6.25, 8.00/3.67, and so forth, and in fact NOTION 4 will not let you specify these types of non-standard time signatures . . .

It is as much a matter of keeping everything simple as it is a matter of practicality, and while one can use "dot" notation and tuplets to specify different time increments, it tends to continue to be binary, which for certain instruments like lead guitar and drums makes it difficult at best to write elaborate syncopation in music notation, even though if one plays lead guitar and drums it is virtually trivial to play elaborately syncopated melodies and percussion patterns . . .

MIDI knows notes based on scientific pitch notation, where "Middle C" is C4, but it uses "Note ON" and "Note OFF" events and durations, which are very precise, as shown in the following screen capture of a section of a MIDI file (".mid"), where for reference the three-digit integers in the "Third" column represent the "Note ON Velocity", "Note OFF Velocity" and "Duration in MIDI Ticks", where as best as I can determine at present "MIDI Ticks" is defined as follows:

Code: Select all

MIDI Ticks = 60,000/(BPM * PPQ) milliseconds

Where:  BPM = beats per minute
        PPQ = pulses per quarter note


[NOTE: The "Note ON Velocity" and "Note OFF Velocity" values can range from 0 to 127. So, for example, "099 064 022" maps to {Note ON Velocity = 099, Note OFF Velocity = 064, MIDI Ticks = 22]. For reference, to see the entire full-width screen capture, you can right click on the image and then select "View Image" if you are using the Firefox web browser, where you will see that the last column is "Ticks" . . . ]



I understand the way you are using "vague" with respect to music notation and MIDI, but from the perspective of MIDI, it is music notation which is vague, because for example a "quarter note" or "quaver" is not an absolute value . . .

It is not absolute value, because it depends on the tempo and time signature, where for example in 4/4 time at the tempo of "q=120", a quarter note has a duration of 500 milliseconds, but at the tempo of "q=240" a quarter note has a duration of 250 milliseconds . . .

Hence, if you ask a musician to play a quarter note, then you need to provide more information to make it specific, and the information needs to be all the more specific when you use the MIDI language to tell a machine to play a note, where the following screen captures show the mapping of a measure of four quarter notes in 4/4 time at a tempo of "q=120" and the way it maps to MIDI instructions via MidiSpy:





THOUGHTS

For the most part, everything that happens on a digital computer is based on numbers, which can be binary or symbolic--although even when they are symbolic, they nevertheless are binary--and software engineers tend to think first in terms of numbers, which is one of the reasons that certain parameters are made available as numerical values, but another equally important reason as it applies to MIDI is that MIDI is an advanced activity which certainly can involve programming, hence it is reasonable in some respects to make the presumption that folks who are doing MIDI will prefer to have the ability to set certain parameters based on their knowledge and understanding of the way MIDI works internally . . .

To get a sense of the vast complexity of the MIDI specification, you can browse through the detailed list of MIDI Messages at the following website, which truly is mind-boggling . . .

Table 1: Summary of MIDI Messages (MIDI Manufacturers Association)

Mind-boggling!

Another key aspect is the variability among MIDI devices, where although there is a general MIDI specification, it is more of a guideline than an absolute, and MIDI device manufacturers have the ability to deviate from the general MIDI specification, at least in some respects . . .

Using studio monitors and listening rooms as an example, it might be nice to imagine an Utopian universe where everything is the same, but the reality is that calibrating a specific set of studio monitors to a particular listening room is not a "one size fits all" type of activity in the sense of having options like "good", "really good", and "fabulous". Calibrating a set of studio monitors to a particular listening room requires using sophisticated calibration hardware and software, and it tends to require doing acoustic treatments of the listening room, as well as augmenting commercial-off-the-shelf (COTS) studio monitors with deep bass subwoofers. It also requires determining the way you want to tune the overall system, where the preferred strategy is to calibrate to a flat equal loudness curve running from 10-Hz to 20,000-Hz, where each particular frequency or pitch is perceived to be equally loud as every other frequency or pitch, which is the only practical way to ensure that what you hear being played through the studio monitor system is accurate . . .

And in the same sense that calibrating a studio monitor system to a particular listening room requires hardware and software which tends to have a virtual festival of parameters, this also is the case when one uses NOTION 4 to create a realistic mapping of MIDI instructions to music notation, and since there are a lot of variables among MIDI instruments, I think the decision to use numerical values for some of the most important parameters makes good practical sense, because there is no one-to-one mapping of MIDI instructions to music notation, which makes it a matter of analyzing the MIDI instructions and then making "best fit" decisions based on the most probable corresponding music notation . . .

Lots of FUN!

Thanks for the informative post, i do understand the logic behind it, I wonder if bach, beethoven etc had to worry about all this claptrap. To me its like going backwards instead of a step forward.

Kind regards,

P

Jaws75 wrote:Thanks for the informative post, i do understand the logic behind it . . .

Glad to help!

Doing digital music production at the dawn of the early-21st century is at least as complex as running a Fortune 500 corporation or flying an interplanetary spaceship, and for most folks it does not have the corresponding financial rewards either (a) ever or (b) until sometime in the perhaps not so distant future, but so what . . .

So what!

Jaws75 wrote:I wonder if bach, beethoven etc had to worry about all this claptrap. To me its like going backwards instead of a step forward.

The way I put everything into what I think is a practical perspective is to consider the realities for arrangers, composers, lyricists, musicians, singers, producers, audio engineers, and mastering engineers several centuries ago, where the latter two sets of folks mostly were focused on such activities as designing, building, and maintaining instruments . . .

[NOTE: I include conducting and directing in the roles I generally assign to "producing", although these roles also are included as part of "arranging" . . . ]

In those days, which actually continued until perhaps 10 years ago, although more realistically perhaps 5 years ago, being able to do what everyone today considers to be completely and totally normal was something reserved for only a few people, primarily because it was so expensive . . .

From this perspective, the thing I ponder is what all the people who did not have the vast resources that were available to Bach, Beethoven, Mozart, et al. did, and for the most part it is not difficult to guess, because in general they did nothing, because economic realities prevented them from doing anything other than composing pieces that nobody every played, if they could afford paper and had enough time after doing their regular jobs . . .

In the late-1960s, the Beatles had generated sufficient revenue to be granted the privilege of hiring an orchestra to play on a few songs, as was the case with other hit recording artists, and this was the reality 50 years ago, which basically was the reality in the days of Bach, Beethoven, Mozart, et al., where it was a rare luxury to have access to an orchestra . . .

Yet today, you have 24x7 access to the London Symphonic Orchestra professionally recorded at Abbey Road Studios and the ability to compose any genre, type, and style of music you desire, especially if you augment the NOTION 4 Bundled Instruments with Expansion Sounds and third-party VSTi virtual instruments, which with a few thoughtful selections literally maps to having an on-call symphonic orchestra with perhaps 100,000 musicians and instruments, ready, willing, and able to do whatever you tell them to do via music notation in NOTION 4 . . .

If you happen to play an instrument proficiently and sing, then you can include at least one real instrument and some singing, which even if you are not so skilled in singing in tune is not a problem when you use the Melodyne Editor (Celemony), which among other things does pitch correction and so much additional stuff that it is a bit mind-boggling, to the point that someone skilled in using the Melodyne Editor can make Bob Dylan or Tom Wait sound like Celine Dion, albeit perhaps a bit "auto-tuned" . . .

[NOTE: The Melodyne Editor also can be used with instruments, and it has the ability to analyze and quantize polyphonic music, although in a practical way for one instrument or set of voices at a time, where for reference if you are singing through a VoiceWorks (TC-Helicon) vocal processor that creates four-part vocal harmony, the Melodyne Editor can separate it into distinct parts, which you then can adjust, edit, and enhance . . . ]

Melodyne Editor (Celemony)

With a peppy MacBook Pro; a nice selection of VSTi virtual instrument and sampled sound libraries; a nice set of AU and VST effect plug-ins; a condenser microphone; and perhaps an electric guitar, you can do a virtual note-for-note "Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band" (Beatles) album inside a Volkswagen Beetle, as is the case for "The Dark Side of the Moon" (Pink Floyd) and every other selection of songs, including everything that Bach, Beethoven, Mozart, et al. did several hundred years ago, and depending on how well you sing or the types of choral sampled sound libraries you have, it can sound just as good, especially if you know (a) how to produce, mix, and master and (b) for at least a few hours have access to a calibrated full-range studio monitor system, which for reference is the only way accurately to mix and master, because for a variety of reasons headphones will not work for final mixing and mastering . . .

Switching to MIDI for a moment, it is vastly complex, but if you do the required reading, studying, and experimenting, then it makes sense after a while, and if you know how to do software engineering it becomes possible to understand intimately what happens behind the scenes in a digital music production application like NOTION 4, as well as the various MIDI utilities for the Mac like MidiKit and MidiSpy, which if you understand how NOTION 4 works makes some fascinating activities both possible and practical . . .

[NOTE: In a practical sense, NOTION 4 is a MIDI editor, and this is one of the reasons that it makes sense to understand MIDI, or at least some of it . . . ]

THOUGHTS

Bach, Beethoven, Mozart, et al. had their own sets of problems, but they had the opportunity to do what they did, which during their lives was a rare luxury that was denied to nearly everyone else for a variety of reasons . . .

Today at the dawn of the early-21st century, all those opportunities are available to everyone who has a digital computer or mobile computing device; some carefully selected digital music production hardware and software; and the desire to arrange, compose, write lyrics, play, sing, mix, produce, mix, and master songs and other types of music, and while it requires money, it does not require an unusual amount of money, where as an example if someone has 10 to 20 hours of free time each week; a lawnmower; and a bit of entrepreneurial skill, I suggest that for most folks it is possible to make enough money in a few months mowing lawns to purchase a very nice digital music production system which is at least sufficient to get started and to begin doing the reading, studying, and experimenting required to make sense of all this stuff . . .

And the truly stellar aspect--which is distinctly different from the way things were several hundred years ago and continuing until as recently as perhaps five years ago--is that nobody can put impenetrable locks on the opportunity door and by doing so keep it closed forever to everyone except a handful of people . . .

Making sense of all this stuff can be very frustrating at times, but my experience strongly suggests that if someone works on it diligently, then sooner or later it begins making excellent sense, and then there you are, which is fabulous . . .

Fabulous!

SurfW
I appreciate the time you take to answer posts!

i do have a better understand thanks to you!

I still think notion could do a better job at transcribing rhythms to the nearest 'readable' score

Perhaps its my entry method of midi guitar..i'll keep cracking on till i find a good balance.