NOTION Music Forum

Logic Pro 9 will NOT be a Rewire slave to Notion. Or indeed, anything.
Apple has finally released its Logic update but I am unable to find out if that feature has been included.
Could someone who buys Logic Pro X please post an answer to this topic?

palm38 wrote:Logic Pro 9 will NOT be a Rewire slave to Notion. Or indeed, anything.
Apple has finally released its Logic update but I am unable to find out if that feature has been included.
Could someone who buys Logic Pro X please post an answer to this topic?

I will check on Logic Pro X (Apple), but in the interim can you explain why you want Logic Pro 9 to be a ReWire 2 slave to NOTION 4?

The reason I ask is that there might be a different way to do what you want to do, which nevertheless meets the your overall criteria and provides a solution, where for example if the goal is to be able to use some of the virtual instruments that Logic Pro 9 provides, then you might be able to do this via NOTION 4 External MIDI staves without needing to do ReWire 2. I have not tried this with Logic Pro 9, but it works very nicely with Reason 7 (Propellerhead Software), which I think is separate from ReWire 2, although adding ReWire 2 makes it better, since ReWire 2 handles the MIDI synchronization automatically . . .

Lots of FUN!

P. S. I am planning to get Logic Pro X in the next day or so, at which time I will do some experiments, but until then this is the link to the Apple Support website where you can download the Logic Pro X User Guide by right-clicking on the "Logic Pro X -- User Guide" link at the top-left and then doing a "Save Link As . . . " to get the PDF file downloaded to your Mac, which is fabulous . . .

Professional Software Manuals (Apple Support)

Fabulous!

P. P. S. I downloaded and checked the Logic Pro X User Guide, and for the most part it refers only to Logic Pro X acting as a ReWire host controller, but there are references to viewing information from "active ReWire hosts", which makes no sense because there can be only one ReWire host controller at any given time, so I cannot state anything definitively until I do some experiments . . .

Thanks for the link. It appears from the manual that Logic Pro X will only participate in ReWire as a host.

Surfwhammy wrote:I will check on Logic Pro X (Apple), but in the interim can you explain why you want Logic Pro 9 to be a ReWire 2 slave to NOTION 4?

I would prefer to work entirely in Notion and control everything from there but some VSTi instruments are easier (and less messy) to program in a DAW than in Notion. These (in my case) are usually subsidiary instruments and having to base the tempo etc of my project on them is awkward.

I can't remember the exact issues now, but the last time I tried to use EWQL WordBuilder, it didn't work at all well in Notion but I found a way to do it in Logic, create an audio track and import that into Notion. Not an easy path to make modifications. A Notion/host Logic/slave arrangement would have been nicer.

Having to spend $200 and be forced up to Mountain Lion to stay right where I am doesn't appeal to me. I had been hoping to avoid the Reaper (which, I understand, WILL operate as a ReWire slave) learning curve but I suppose it's inevitable.

palm38 wrote:you might be able to do this via NOTION 4 External MIDI staves without needing to do ReWire 2

This sounds interesting!

palm38 wrote:Thanks for the link. It appears from the manual that Logic Pro X will only participate in ReWire as a host.

Having to spend $200 and be forced up to Mountain Lion to stay right where I am doesn't appeal to me. I had been hoping to avoid the Reaper (which, I understand, WILL operate as a ReWire slave) learning curve but I suppose it's inevitable.

I am running the current version of Mountain Lion (Mac OS X 10.8.4), and I did some tests with the current Mac version of Reaper (v4.402) , and it does not work correctly for ReWire 2, so I do not recommend using Reaper on the Mac if you want to do ReWire 2, really . . .

Really!

palm38 wrote:

palm38 wrote:you might be able to do this via NOTION 4 External MIDI staves without needing to do ReWire 2

This sounds interesting!

This can be a good solution for your specific needs . . .

Instead of trying to control Logic Pro 9 via ReWire 2, you will control and play Logic Pro 9 virtual instruments via one or more NOTION 4 External MIDI staves, and this is separate and independent of ReWire 2 . . .

DETAILS AND THOUGHTS

NOTION 4 provides External MIDI functionality, and this is done in score setup, where you will find a button in the lower-right corner for "External MIDI" . . .

The way it works is that the music notation is provided on an External MIDI staff, and you can have several of them, where what happens is that the music notation is sent in MIDI format to either (a) an virtual MIDI device residing and running on the same computer or (b) to an external MIDI device, which typically will be something like a physical MIDI keyboard synthesizer . . .

As an example, I did some experiments with NOTION 4 External MIDI staves and used them to control and to play virtual instruments in Reason 6.5 and Reason 7 (Propellerhead Software), and I did this at first without doing a ReWire session, as I recall, but later I added ReWire, since ReWire handles MIDI synchronization, but I need to verify this, because I might used ReWire all the time . . .

On the other hand, I also did an experiment where Digital Performer 8 was the ReWIre host controller and both NOTION 4 and Reason 7 were ReWire 2 slaves, but at the same time the NOTION 4 score had External MIDI staves that were controlling Reason 7 virtual synthesizers, and this worked nicely, hence I think that the NOTION 4 External MIDI functionality is separate from ReWire, per se . . .

Testing this with NOTION 4 and Reason 7 requires doing everything in specific order, even if there are no ReWire channels defined in the Reason 7 project, because if NOTION 4 is started first, it is a candidate to become the ReWIre host controller, and Reason 7 only acts as a ReWire slave (unless being able to act as a ReWire host controller is a new feature in Reason 7, which is unlikely but could be possible and is something I need to check) . . .

However, if Reason 7 is started first and then NOTION 4 is started, I think this scenario might isolate the ReWire aspect . . .

And I just did this test, and the results were as predicted, where to be specific I started Reason 7 first and opened the test project that has two virtual synthesizers which are connected with a "virtual MIDI cable" to NOTION 4. Then I opened NOTION 4 and played the song using the NOTION 4 transport, where the result was that the Reason 7 virtual instruments played correctly but the Reason 7 transport was not slaved to the NOTION 4 transport, which is the clue that there is no ReWire 2 session, since Reason 7 only acts as a ReWire 2 slave, not a ReWire 2 host controller, and by starting NOTION 4 after Reason 7, if NOTION 4 is acting as a ReWire 2 host controller, it is not aware of Reason 7 as a candidate for being a ReWire 2 slave, which even though it is a bit confusing makes sense if you think about it for a while, because if in this specific scenario Reason 7 became a ReWire 2 slave after it was started, then one would expect NOTION 4 acting as a ReWire 2 host controller to be able to control the Reason 7 transport, which is not what happens, hence I am confident that the External MIDI functionality in NOTION 4 is independent of ReWire 2, although when ReWire 2 is happening, there are benefits in terms of gaining automatic MIDI synchronization, and this also makes sense when one considers that NOTION 4 can be the only digital music application running and can control external physical MIDI keyboard synthesizers via NOTION 4 External MIDI staves, where in this scenario ReWire 2 is irrelevant . . .

In other words, I think the following bits of information are accurate:

(1) NOTION 4 External MIDI functionality is independent of ReWire 2, such that ReWire 2 is not required to use the NOTION 4 External MIDI functionality . . .

(2) However, if activated, ReWire 2 can enhance the functionality of NOTION 4 External MIDI staves with respect to virtual instruments communicating via a "virtual MIDI cable" due to the ability of ReWire 2 to handle MIDI synchronization as well as coordinating the various transports of digital music production applications participating in the ReWire 2 session

For reference, when I refer to "viritual MID cables" I am referring to the IAC Driver that comes with Mac OS X and its ability to create software communication links, "cables", or "pipes" between MIDI applications for purposes of sending and receiving MIDI data on the same computer, such that in this example if you want NOTION 4 to send MIDI data to Reason 7, then you create a "virtual MIDI cable" using the IAC Driver and then use this "virtual MIDI cable" to connect NOTION 4 to Reason 7 . . .

The "virtual MIDI cables" are created on the Mac using the Audio MID Setup application in its MIDI window, where basically you need at least one IAC Bus and the IAC Driver needs to be online. Once this is done, you can create the specific connections in the digital music production applications . . .

More specifically, once you have at least one IAC Bus with a channel assigned, then when you run NOTION 4 you will enter score setup and create an External MIDI staff, which you assign to the MIDI Port and MIDI Channel for that MIDI Port, where MIDI Port and channel need to match the MIDI Port and MIDI Channel that you specified for the IAC Driver's IAC Bus in Audio MIDI Setup . . .

Then, in Logic Pro 9, you will connect the virtual synthesizer to the IAC Bus and IAC Channel, where you might be able to give it a special name, but perhaps not . . .

And in this scenario, even though NOTION 4 is not the ReWire 2 host controller and Logic Pro 9 is not a ReWire 2 host controller or slave, hence NOTION 4 is responsible for its audio generating and playing and the NOTION 4 transport only controls NOTION 4, what happens is that since the music notation for the Logic Pro 9 virtual instruments being controlled and played via NOTION 4 External MIDI staves are playing notes based on their sequential appearance in the NOTION 4 score, everything is synchronized, because what happens is that no matter where you start in the NOTION 4 score, the notes for the virtual instruments in Logic Pro 9 are sent in real-time and in this scenario Logic Pro 9 simply plays the MIDI notes and commands that it is sent, so for example if you start at the beginning of the song, then Logic Pro 9 is sent the music notation for its virtual instruments beginning at that time in sequential order, and it plays the music notation in real-time so that everything is synchronized, but is you start at measure 22, then Logic Pro 9 starts receiving the MIDI stuff at that point, and again Logic Pro 9 just plays it . . .

I have not done this experiment with Logic Pro 9, but I did it with Reason 7, and it works as predicted. As time allows, I will do the experiment with Logic Pro 9 to verify that it works this way with Logic Pro 9, although I think it is reasonable to suggest that it works the same with Logic Pro 9 . . .

Explained another way, when one uses a NOTION 4 External MIDI staff, it makes no difference whether the MIDI instrument being played is (a) a real external MIDI keyboard synthesizer connected to the computer via an external MIDI interface and real MIDI cables or (b) is a digital music production application running on the same computer and connected with a "virtual MIDI cable" via the Mac OS X IAC Driver and one or more IAC Buses with appropriate IAC Channels, which is fabulous . . .

Fabulous!

P. S. I did a quick test using the Logic Pro 9 "Instrument" template, which loads a bunch of Logic Pro 9 instruments and has each one set to listen and to respond to MIDI, and it works very nicely with NOTION 4 External MIDI staves, where the specific sequence was first to start NOTION 4 (64-bit) and then to start Logic Pro 9, where when Logic Pro 9 starts it presents a warning that it will not function as a ReWire host controller or slave, which is fine so ignore the warning, and then the Logic Pro 9 project continues to load, and there are 20 or so virtual instruments, all of which work and respond to the music notation sent from NOTION 4 via its External MIDI staves, but since the Logic Pro 9 project is configured generically, to audition each instrument you need to click on its track in the Logic Pro 9 Mixer, which is a handy way to do it for example purposes . . .

In practice, you will provide the specific IAC Bus and IAC Channel(s) for each Logic Pro 9 virtual instrument rather than setting all of the Logic Pro 9 virtual instruments generically, but this is easy to do, and it works without needing to use ReWire 2, hence if your goal is to be able to play Logic Pro 9 virtual instruments from your NOTION 4 score, then you can do this via NOTION 4 External MIDI staves without needing to do anything with ReWire 2, and this is very easy to do on the Mac, for sure . . .

For sure!

P. P. S. I will make a short video on this later, perhaps tonight, but at this point I have no doubt that it works, where for reference you also can do this with any virtual instrument that has a standalone player application, hence in this respect Logic Pro 9 is just the "player app" for its virtual instruments, and it plays whatever the connected NOTION 4 External MIDI staff tells it to play, where to be specific you can have multiple NOTION 4 External MIDI staves, hence are not limited to just a single such instrument . . .

This is the promised YouTube video that shows how to use NOTION 4 External MIDI staves (a.k.a., "channels" and "tracks") to play Logic Pro 9 (Apple) virtual instruments without using a ReWire session, which is fabulous . . .

[NOTE: I tend to call everything a "track", so if this is confusing, try to deal with it. When the focus is music notation, the correct terms are "staff" and "staves", but when everything switches to mixing, "channels" and "tracks" are the correct terms, but I prefer to use "tracks" since I like to reserve "channels" for use with ReWire and MIDI, which when I am doing something like making a video in real-time on the fly without a script is a bit much to remember, hence I pick a word and use it, which in this instance most of the time was "tracks" . . . ]

Using NOTION 4 External MIDI to play Logic Pro 9 virtual instruments -- YouTube video

Fabulous!

P. S. It might not be so obvious, but the audio output from NOTION 4 is being sent to the designated audio output device, which in this instance is the MOTU 828mk3 Hybrid external digital audio and MIDI interface here in the sound isolation studio. This also is the case for the Logic Pro 9 audio output, which is important to understand . . .

Specifically, Logic Pro 9 is not sending its output to NOTION 4, since this is not a ReWire session, and you can verify this by looking at the track(s) in the NOTION 4 Mixer for the External MIDI staves, where there are no levels because there is no audio being generated by NOTION 4 for these External MIDI staves . . .

Instead, the audio for the music notation on the External MIDI staves is generated by Logic Pro 9 as the Logic Pro 9 virtual instruments play the MIDI notes and commands sent by the NOTION 4 External MIDI staves . . .

Hence, to get a nice blend, you need to adjust the volume sliders in both NOTION 4 and Logic Pro 9, where the instruments played and generated by NOTION 4 have their own volume sliders and output levels, as do the virtual instruments played by Logic Pro 9 based on the MIDI notes and commands sent to Logic Pro 9 by the NOTION 4 External MIDI staves, really . . .

Really!

P. P. S. Continuing with the not so obvious stuff, the reality here in the sound isolation studio is that the IAC Driver is a bit mysterious in the sense that I do not understand how it works in any immediately conscious way, but this is one of the great aspects of doing digital music production on the Mac, which specifically is that you do not need to understand intimately on an highly technical level how everything works, because stuff tends to work automagically without actually requiring you to understand it . . .

Hence, I included the Audio MIDI Setup stuff because it is one of the things I did when I was clicking on stuff toward the goal of getting everything to work. It might not be necessary, but I included it in case it is necessary, and it is entirely possible that NOTION 4, Logic Pro 9, and Reason 7 (Propellerhead Software) handle the MIDI ports and channels without the additional step of starting the IAC Driver and creating a few IAC Buses . . .

If necessary, I can delve into the intimate inner workings of Audio MIDI Setup and the IAC Driver, but doing that involves messing with technical computer stuff, and while I can do it, the general focus here in the sound isolation studio is on making music, not on messing with technical computer stuff, and keeping on focus is vastly easier when you do digital music production on the Mac, for sure . . .

For sure!

Surfwhammy wrote:Instead, the audio for the music notation on the External MIDI staves is generated by Logic Pro 9 as the Logic Pro 9 virtual instruments play the MIDI notes and commands sent by the NOTION 4 External MIDI staves . . .

As I understand it, this is a method for getting Notion to play external instruments that are hosted by another program. But this presumably requires the Notion notation to contain any keyswitch notes necessary to change articulations on those instruments. This could be a very useful technique for using external instruments that are not VSTi-based and cannot be loaded into Notion or, indeed, for playing a hardware MIDI instrument in sync with a Notion score.

What, basically, I am trying to do is to use the DAW to enter the played notes AND the keyswitch notes, VSL full instrument for example,(because I find that less messy than dealing with the necessary ledger-line madness that is necessary in Notion) and then having that DAW track act as just another track within Notion on playback without having to bake it into an audio file that CAN be synced to Notion as I can now do with Logic9.

I suspect that Notion as ReWire host is the only way to do this. Since Logic (and, as you say, Reaper) are not adept at this, are you aware of a DAW that IS able to cooperate with Notion in this fashion?

I can hear cash registers ringing already!

palm38 wrote:What, basically, I am trying to do is to use the DAW to enter the played notes AND the keyswitch notes, VSL full instrument for example,(because I find that less messy than dealing with the necessary ledger-line madness that is necessary in Notion) and then having that DAW track act as just another track within Notion on playback without having to bake it into an audio file that CAN be synced to Notion as I can now do with Logic9.

QUESTION: Is there a specific reason for not doing this with Logic Pro 9 (Apple) as the ReWire 2 host controller and NOTION 4 as the ReWire 2 slave?

Answering your high-level question, I think that Ableton Live 9 Standard or Suite might be a solution if NOTION 4 must be the ReWire 2 host controller and the DAW application needs to be a ReWire 2 slave, as explained later in the next section of this novel, noting that I enjoy writing and that when I can write about something in great detail, it usually is a clue that I might actually understand it, which is fabulous . . .

Fabulous!

THOUGHTS

The only reason that comes to mind at the moment for wanting NOTION 4 to be the ReWire 2 host controller is to take advantage of the conducting feature of NOTION 4 (Performance Mode and NTempo), but some of this can be done with a DAW application . . .

For example, Digital Performer 8 (MOTU) allows the tempo to be controlled by either NOTION 4 or itself, and this is done by setting or clearing something called the "tempo slider", and I think that Logic Pro 9 also has conducting features, but NOTION 4 has the best conducting features without doubt . . .

TO DO: If you can provide more information on what you need to do, with some general detail for things like a ballpark estimate of the number of VSTi virtual instruments in the NOTION 4 score and so forth, I can provide more help, but at present I have not found any information in your posts that specifically precludes having the DAW application being the ReWire 2 host controller and NOTION 4 being the ReWire 2 slave . . .

I am not suggesting that there are no good reasons for needing NOTION 4 to be the ReWire 2 host controller, but I am explaining that so far I see nothing in the information you have provided that specifically requires it . . .

And for reference, it is important to understand that when Logic Pro 9 is the ReWire 2 host and NOTION 4 is the ReWire 2 slave, you can work in NOTION 4 as you do when you are running NOTION 4 by itself, where the only significant difference is that the audio is handled by the ReWire 2 host controller, which in this scenario will be Logic Pro 9 . . .

In other words, you can run Logic Pro 9 and NOTION 4 at the same time in a ReWire 2 session, which is obvious, but what might not be so obvious is that you can continue working in both applications as you do when they are running by themselves, which is what I do in my digital music production system, which begins by doing a simple rhythm section in NOTION 4 by itself, but once the basic rhythm section is composed I do a ReWire 2 session with Digital Performer 8 as the ReWire 2 host controller and NOTION 4 as the ReWire 2 slave to record the NOTION 4 generated audio as soundbites in Digital Performer 8. When that is done, I continue working on the song but from this point forward I do it in a ReWire 2 session . . .

If I need to do something in Digital Performer 8, then I do it as usual; and if I need to do something in NOTION 4, perhaps with a new score "cloned" from the basic rhythm section via "Save As . . . ", but as noted this is done in a ReWire 2 session, which allows me to switch easily from Digital Performer 8 to NOTION 4 and vice-verse, as needed . . .

And I save everything frequently, which I think is important when working with multiple digital music production applications in a simultaneous ReWire 2 session . . .

More to the point, even though there is a ReWire 2 session and everything is synchronized in terms of measures, tempo, and so forth, I can close the current NOTION 4 score and then create a new NOTION 4 score, which is fine with Digital Performer 8 . . .

If I need to do something with Reason 7 in the ReWire 2 session, I can start Reason 7 and then open an existing project or start a new project, and if necessary I can switch to NOTION 4 and create some External MIDI staves to control and play Reason 7 virtual instruments. And I can save and close Reason 7 when I do not need it anymore, so the entire system is very flexible, and this is one of the important but in many respects subtle advantages of Digital Performer 8, NOTION 4, and Reason 7 being 64-bit applications, because each of them is what in software engineering and more specifically in computer science is considered to be a "well-behaved" application, which explained in a more simple way maps to my not being concerned about any of the applications misbehaving or crashing unexpectedly, although after decades of working on computers I save everything frequently, just in case . . .

Nevertheless, even though Logic Pro 9 and DIgital Performer 8 function only as ReWire 2 host controllers, there is a DAW application that functions as a ReWire 2 host controller or as a ReWire 2 slave, and it is Ableton Live 9, where you need the Standard version or the Suite version, both of which support all features, where the MSRP for the Standard version currently is $449 (US) and the MSRP for the Suite version is $749 (US) . . .

I have tested the 32-bit version, since it is the free demo version, but I have not tested the 64-bit version. I am satisfied that Ableton Live 9 is a well-designed, carefully programmed, and tested DAW application, and I like it, so the best I can do is recommend it with the caveat that I have not done experiments with the 64-bit version . . .

Ableton Live 9 (32-bit) as ReWire host controller, NOTION 4 (32-bit) as ReWIre slave on the Mac -- QuickTime Movie -- MOV (4.5MB, approximately 1 minute and 15 seconds)

[NOTE: There is a problem with the Windows version of Ableton Live 9 doing ReWire 2--or there was several months ago if it has been fixed since then--but I encountered no problems with the 32-bit Mac version of Ableton Live 9 doing ReWire 2, so I think the problem occurs only on Windows machines . . . ]

However, I did a bit of checking, and it appears that the 64-bit version of Ableton Live 9 is available for demo, so I am downloading it now and will see what happens. If I have a problem due to already testing the 32-bit demo version, I should be able to send the Ableton folks an email requesting a demo key or whatever for purposes of testing the 64-bit version . . .

I did a video on Ableton Live 9 (32-bit) doing ReWIre 2 as the host controller, so I know enough about its graphic user interface (GUI) to be reasonably productive, and there are some aspects of Ableton Live 9 that I like more than Logic Pro 9 and Digital Performer 8, and it has some very intriguing features that I think are unique. At first, it was a bit confusing, but this was due to the GUI being a bit different from the Logic Pro 9 and Digital Performer 8 GUIs, but once I realized what I was seeing, everything started making excellent sense, which is fine with me, since the Logic Pro 9 GUI is different from the Digital Performer 8 GUI, and it took me a while to make sense of Logic Pro 9, because it looks different from Digital Performer 8, which is my primary DAW application. For some unknown reason, I thought the Mixer in Ableton Live 9 was running horizontally rather than vertically, but once I realized that the Mixer channels and tracks were vertical, it made sense. It has a crisper or perhaps more stark GUI, and I did not see the Mixer channels and tracks as being vertical at first, which confused me for a few days, but once I used it for a while, I started liking the GUI, hence the "crisp" description, which for me not an easily earned compliment after doing GUI programming since the first version of Windows and then switching to Mac OS X in 2001, and I love the electric guitar tone in the video, which is stellar and reminds me of the tone David Gilmour (Pink Floyd) gets with his Stratocaster and a virtual festival of effects units. And for reference, I played the electric guitar part on a mini-keyboard with the mouse, hence the hesitation and so forth, but so what . . .

Hence, if you must do ReWire 2 with NOTION 4 as the ReWire 2 host controller and use a DAW application in the ReWIre 2 session running in slave mode, then Ableton Live 9 (Standard or Suite version) might be a nice solution, since according to the Ableton Live 9 User Guide, it works as a ReWIre 2 host controller or as a ReWire 2 slave . . .

[NOTE: To see the link to the 64-bit Mac version, click on "Show more download options", which is the part I missed but just saw, but it might be a new option. When you click on it, it shows the download link for the 64-bit Mac version, which is what you will want to download and test. You can download the user guide as a PDF file at the Ableton website, and it is the full documentation . . . ]

Ableton Live 9 Suite Demo

Lots of FUN!

P. S. After downloading and installing the 64-bit version of Ableton Live 9 for the Mac, I was able to verify that it works as a ReWire 2 slave when NOTION 4 is the ReWire 2 host controller, but I need to discover how to configure an Ableton Live 9 instrument to be played by inputted or imported MIDI notes and how to get everything to start at the same time . . .

And I discovered that I can run the free trial version but cannot save projects, which is sufficient for now . . .

Q: Can LogicX serve as rewire slave?

From Logicprohelp

User Jordito says:
"I doubt it as Logic has always served as Rewire "master".

User Collinc follows up with:
"Rewire isn't on in X by default, you have to turn it on in prefs. and yes, Logic is a master only, no slave options."