NOTION Music Forum

I'm having some challenges creating string tremolos on anything other than square 8th/16th note divisions. Is it possible to create triplets/sextuplets or other tuplets on a single note tremolo? A score with tons of written out fast repetitions looks absurd.

klaviersonic wrote:I'm having some challenges creating string tremolos on anything other than square 8th/16th note divisions. Is it possible to create triplets/sextuplets or other tuplets on a single note tremolo? A score with tons of written out fast repetitions looks absurd.

With the caveat that I mostly focus on DISCO and Pop songs, my understanding at present is that "tremolos" in the context of Classical, Orchestral, Symphonic, and other such genres refers to a virtual festival of articulations that for electric guitar basically are called either "tremolo" or "vibrato", where "tremolo" is a fluctuation in volume, but "vibrato" is a fluctuation in pitch . . .

NOTION 4 supports (a) fingered tremolo, (b) measured tremolo, and (c) trills for violins, and some of these things are called "shakes", as well, as demonstrated in this YouTube music video . . .

[NOTE: Once YouTube finishes doing the video processing for 720p HD, you can watch it in higher resolution, which makes it easier to see the various articulation notation, where specifically these articulation symbols are found on the NOTION 4 palette, and they are explained in the NOTION 4 User Guide . . . ]

NOTION 4 Tremolo, Shakes, and Trills -- YouTube music video

Depending on the particular sampled instrument library, there are other such things which are supported, so this is just a quick overview, and NOTION 4 supports "rules", which are special instructions that tell sampled instrument library engines how to do certain things. There are other Notion Music FORUM members who focus on rules and know a lot about using rules in this context. At present, mostly what I know about rules are (a) that rules exist and (b) that you do not need to use them for DISCO and Pop songs. But I also know that the folks who are skilled in creating very realistic Orchestral and Symphonic music tend to use rules and to create their own custom rules, which is vastly important for those and related genres . . .

[NOTE: In great contrast, I am focused primarily on creating music for the so-called "Youth of Today" to use in their ongoing mating rituals, which typically does not require wandering into the more esoteric aspects of virtuoso music performances . . . ]

It also is important to understand that there are two general types of sampled instrument libraries, where (a) one type samples some of the notes but not all the notes and some of the articulations and dynamics but not all the articulations and dynamics and (b) the other type samples every note in every articulation and dynamic, where the latter sampled instrument libraries usually cost significantly more and are much larger, since they have samples for everything . . .

For the sampled instrument libraries that only sample some of the notes, articulations, and samples, what happens is that the non-sampled notes are generated by computer algorithms, as are some of the articulations and dynamics, and specifically for time-based and pitch-based articulations like tremolo and vibrato, this is important to understand, because while the sampled notes have the correct timing, the computed intermediate notes might have a different timing, speed, or rate for tremolo and vibrato, hence ideally you want a fully sampled instrument or as an alternative for something like an electric guitar you want to run the notes through a tremolo or vibrato effects plug-in, since this ensures that the timing or speed is the same regardless of whether a note actually was sampled or is computed using a nearby actually sampled note . . .

Explained another way, if C5 and D5 are sampled notes, then C#5 being a non-sampled note will be computed using either the sampled C5 or D5, and if the sampled C5 has tremolo at a rate of 20 fluctuations per second, then when it is played faster to create the C#5, the fluctuations also will increase, and the reverse happens if D5 is used to compute the C#5, where since the D5 is played slower, the resulting fluctuations will be a bit slower than 20 fluctuations per second or whatever . . .

[NOTE: It is not just a matter of playing a C5 faster to create a virtual C#5, since there are logarithmic computations, probably with a bit of extrapolation and so forth, but the simple way to understand the concept is that when C#5 is not sampled, a nearby actually sampled note is used to compute a virtual C#5, and the computation uses a sophisticated algorithm that is designed to produce a very realistic virtual note using principles of mathematics, music, and acoustic physics, and this work typically is done by the "engine" that generates the notes . . . ]

In particular, the NOTION 4 Bundled Instruments are extensively sampled, and Notion Music has Expansion Sound libraries that add more instruments and more articulations and dynamics, which is one of the advantages of using the NOTION 4 Bundled Instruments, but there are third-party sampled instrument collections that are just as detailed and in some instances are more detailed, so it depends on a combination of (a) what you need to do and (b) your budget . . .

Here in the sound isolation studio, everything is considerably simpler, because in the DISCO and Pop universes there are only four important articulations and dynamics, which is fabulous

(1) Pulsating

(2) Loud

(3) Wearing Underpants

(4) Not Wearing Underpants

Fabulous!

I wouldn't think this has anything to do with requiring specialized sampling, rather the sequencer would simply trigger the sample the same as any other tuplet, but on the same note. This isn't an esoteric virtuoso technique, it's a matter of basic notation necessary for accurate and professional symphonic writing. Writing out every repetition leads to a cluttered and confusing mess for performers and conductors.

Look how clean and elegant this notation is from Wagner's Walküre. This should be simplicity itself to execute within Notion. Perhaps there is some special rule that enables this type of technique.

klaviersonic wrote:Look how clean and elegant this notation is from Wagner's Walküre. This should be simplicity itself to execute within Notion. Perhaps there is some special rule that enables this type of technique.
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After pondering this idea for a while, I think that I like it, if only because I am a huge fan of Arch Enemy and Daniel Erlandsson, who is the best Melodic Death Metal drummer in the known universe . . .

For reference, I entered two measures of the Wagner example in NOTION 4 and when I pressed "Play" it activated an Easter Egg out of which Ozzie Ozborne appeared and started to sing, "Iron Man", really . . .



Really!

THOUGHTS

I have not made sense of the dotted half notes in the second measure, but in the first measure I think the general idea is that a dotted half note is split into six individual notes, which as a tuplet are played over one beat rather than over a beat and a half, but this is only a guess, since it appears possible that the measured tremolo mark has an affect on what happens, unless in this instance the measured tremolo mark is used in a different way than it is used in NOTION 4 . . .

Specifically, according to the NOTION 4 User Guide, a single measured tremolo mark maps to playing two notes rather than one note, hence for a quarter note in NOTION 4 in 4/4 time, adding a single measured tremolo mark maps to playing two eighth notes . . .

Conceptually, I think I understand the idea, and as noted my best guess is that the idea is to play six notes within one beat in what I call a "syncopated" way, where as an entity the dotted half note, single measured tremolo mark, and the number "6" indicate that this is to be played as a tuplet over one beat rather than over a beat and a half, which is fine with me . . .

I think this could be handy for Melodic Death Metal snare drum rimshots and for certain types of pick patterns for electric guitar . . .

Whether this is standard notation is another matter, and I do not know enough about music notation to make this determination, but from a mathematical perspective I am intrigued by the idea of not constraining everything to multiples of two, which appears to be the current practice in NOTION 4 for tuplet ratios, where for example one can enter "6" for the number of notes (or "Fit") and "1.5" for the duration (or "Into"), but it maps to "6/4" as a ratio, which I think is an error. You can make the tuplet "3/2" and use a single measured tremolo mark, but if there are three of these tuplets, the measure is short by 6 eighth notes . . .





[NOTE: On the Mac, doing these experiments causes NOTION 4 (64-bit) to crash after doing Custom Tuplet modifications just a few times, which is not encouraging, although the data is not lost and can be recovered . . . ]

Regarding syncopation, which from one perspective is what this involves, it is problem for some of the genres I prefer, and this is the reason that I am intrigued by the idea of being able to be unconstrained by the "multiples of two" constraint, where as best as I have been able to determine so far, the only way I can create certain types of syncopated phrases is to use tuplets as a workaround for odd beats, which is fine with me, but for some types of syncopated electric guitar phrases it is vastly easier for me to play it on a real guitar than to attempt to do it with music notation for a virtual electric guitar . . .

Using a personal favorite Led Zeppelin song as an example, I think the general rule with respect to music notation and lead guitar is "Best Wishes!" on doing an accurate transcription of the electric guitar played by Jimmy Page in "Whole Lotta Love", mostly because it is so intricately syncopated, even though it is not particularly difficult to play on a real electric guitar in the "by ear" universe here in the sound isolation studio . . .

[NOTE: This also applies to John Bonham's stellar drumming, which is doing syncopation to Jimmy Page's lead guitar syncopation and is what makes it work, where the general rules are (a) that a skilled bass player can make a good singer sound great and (b) a skilled drummer can make a good lead guitar player sound great . . . ]

"Whole Lotta Love" (Led Zeppelin) -- YouTube music video

Another example is the real electric guitar part in "Feel Me" (The Surf Whammys), which is the electric guitar doing glissandi, a la "Pipeline" (The Chantays), and a variation of "The Peter Gunn Theme" (Henry Mancini) with a bit of whammying (a personal favorite articulation), which is easy to play on a real electric guitar but for me is not practical to do with music notation and a virtual electric guitar . . .

[NOTE: All the other instruments are done with music notation and virtual instruments in NOTION, so it is just a few things mostly for electric guitar that I need to do for real . . . ]

"Feel Me" (The Surf Whammys -- YouTube music video

SUMMARY

It is an intriguing idea, and I think it makes a bit of sense, which is fabulous . . .

Fabulous!

The second measure repeats the pattern of the first, 6 strokes per dotted half note. The dotted halves here are probably a notational quirk, as the sequencer needs these 3 long notes to be in a 9:6 tuplet. They are supposed to represent the 6 eighth notes in the space of one beat, not 1.5 beats (6 eighths = 1 dotted half). The whole measure (and the following) is essentially 18 eighth notes in the space of 12 eighths.

It is a common practice that repetitive patterns simply continue in the same manner without having to mark them explicitly as such, though one would have to be so explicit with software, for the sake of composers saving pen strokes and especially engravers saving enormous effort chiseling out little 6's by hand for many pages of music.

I recognize this as an issue that we need to address. I will submit a feature request to allow for this style of Notation.

Regards,

-Admin

Thanks Admin, On a related note, fingered tremolos between two notes could use this tuplet feature as well. It's great that the developers are so involved with the user base.

I have added fingered tremolo to the Feature Request.

-Admin

This is good feature to have. Any chance we'll see playback of tremolos as well?

Tremolos playback in most cases.

Can you give me an example of where they do not?

-Admin