Orchestral mock ups

[davidmesiha]

Hey guys,
I have started this topic to get some consensus and may be we can all learn something new from each other.
How do you work when doing orchestral mock ups?

here is how I have been trying to do it now. I have logic running as rewire master. I have notion sending audio into logic in small groups and individual instruments. I do all my panning in Notion, but reverb in logic for the mixing stage.

I'm still not quite sure of the best way to set up the reverb to get each instrument group in its correct space without getting muddy. currently I use EWQL Space reverb and load them on buses in instrument groups.

At the moment I send the output of each specific instrument to the correct bus, so for example the violin channel will output to the strings bus, which has the strings reverb on it and that in turn outputs to the master fader with master reverb.

Violins I > Strings Reverb > Maser Reverb

one thing I would like to try and see if I get better results is to have it so that the channel doesn't output to the bus, but rather through a send, still I'm not sure if I should use pre or post send. That scenario would look like this

Violin|----->Send (Pre/Post)------>String Reverb bus------>Master
|----->output------>Master

what do you guys think?

Also, I did notice that often when I'm recording into logic through rewire there is a delay of about dotted eight note or so, but often that delay is not the same amount across the track and can change to that in the beginning of the track things are falling on the correct beats in logic as notated, but as I play the track I notice some drifting. anyone noticed that ?

cheers

David

[dranck]

I've been using a similar strategy without the rewire portion. I prefer to compose in Notion and them import (via midi) into Sonar X2. For effects routing, I've been experimenting with a configuration like your second sample:
Violin|----->Send (Pre)------>String Reverb bus------>Master
|----->output------>Master

The effects send is Pre, not Post. This way I can control the volume of the send and the original independently which provides great flexibility in mixing in the effects. For example, you place an instrument further back in the field by increasing the effect bus volume and decreasing the direct volume. This makes the instrument sound farther away which can be appropriate for placing brass, etc. in the field.

That said, I still struggle with getting good, clear mixes. I'm getting better, but still have a way to go.

Have fun!

Dave

[Surfwhammy]

I have logic running as rewire master. I have notion sending audio into logic in small groups and individual instruments. I do all my panning in Notion, but reverb in logic for the mixing stage.

I'm still not quite sure of the best way to set up the reverb to get each instrument group in its correct space without getting muddy. currently I use EWQL Space reverb and load them on buses in instrument groups.

NOTION 4 has true stereo panning controls, which is very nice and is quite different from stereo balance controls, since you can pan the location of instruments with a true stereo panning control, as contrasted to being able only to adjust the volume levels of the left and right channels with a stereo balance control, but you also can do true stereo panning with Logic Pro 9, as is the case with Digital Performer 8, but it requires using an extra plug-in . . .

Overall, I generally prefer to do panning in NOTION 4 when I know in advance what I want to do later in the mix, but with ReWire 2 if I need to change something I can just redo the ReWire 2 step and create a new, differently panned "soundbite", which is what the NOTION 4 generated audio is called when it is recorded in Digital Performer 8 via ReWire 2 . . .

In the two scenario you provided, as I understand what you wrote, the first scenario has the output of each channel or track routed directly to a reverb bus, and in this scenario the relative volume level of each instrument will be controlled by the volume slider for its respective track, which is fine, and what is sent will be post-fader, hence any changes you make to the individual channel will be sent . . .

In the second scenario, you are using a send to route each instrument to its group or section reverb bus, and in this scenario you have the option (a) to send the original input unaffected by the pan control and volume slider, which will be "Pre Fader"; (b) to send the original input after it is modified by the volume slider, which will be "Post Fader"; or (c) the original input signal after it is modified by both the pan control and the volume slider, which will be "Post Pan" . . .

However, other than equalization modifications, if there are effects inserts for a channel, where 100 percent of the original signal is sent to the effects insert, then this is not included with what is sent to the auxiliary channel, hence is a consideration, but even if you do use an effects insert most effects plug-ins have an input level control, so you can control how much of the original input is used for the effect, hence in some respects is it mostly is a matter of the way you want to work with the various controls and effects plug-ins when producing and mixing . . .

I have Digital Performer 8 (MOTU) and Logic Pro 9 (Apple), but I prefer to use Digital Performer 8, since I have more experience with it and generally find it to be much easier to use than Logic Pro 9, although this might be due to having more stick time with Digital Performer 8 . . .

The strategy I use is based in part on something that Les Paul wrote about reverberation and echoes, which is that it is better to do them on all the instruments and vocals, since otherwise it sounds a bit artificial or strange, except that I modify the advice a bit, where I have reverb and echoes for the Master stereo output, which applies equally to everything, but I also use reverb and echo on individual tracks and groups of tracks when it makes sense and the sound needs to be different . . .

[NOTE: Most of the time I use "channels" and "tracks" interchangeably, where using "channels" is a bit awkward, since I mostly think of "channels" in terms of ReWire 2 channels and so forth, so if I switch to using "tracks", it is the same thing, really. The important thing is that most of the time "channels" and "tracks" refer to the tall vertical things with the volume fader, pan control, and all the knobs, buttons, inserts, and so forth . . . ]

I like to have all the volume sliders or faders pegged to 0dB, since it looks good and removes messing with volume sliders from the equation, and when I do this I use one or more of a small set of limiters, leveling amplifiers, and compressors of various types to do the primary volume level adjustment, and I do this because it gives me more intimate and detailed control over the actual perceived volume level or loudness for each instrument or voice, and most of the time (a) it will be the first effect insert in the chain and (b) it will be done in a minimal way, which almost makes it transparent but not always . . .

In this context, it is useful to understand that I focus primarily on DISCO and Pop songs, where the general goal is for everything to be heard rather than on preserving dynamics and all that typically Orchestral and Symphonic stuff, where the overall perspective is that if you cannot hear it, then it does not need to be there, hence if you leave it there it just adds noise and reduces clarity . . .

Another aspect of this strategy is what one might call the "Elvis Rule", which basically is that it makes no sense to have Elvis share a reverb and echo unit with Scotty Moore, hence you run Elvis through separate reverb and echo units, as you do with Scotty Moore's electric guitar and everything else. In other words, every instrument and voice becomes "Elvis" and the goal is to tailor each one individually and then to add a tiny bit of reverb, echo, and other effects to everything in the Master stereo output track but in a way that is focused on the Gestalt, room, concert hall, or whatever . . .

As an example of using different types effects, including limiters, leveling amplifiers, brickwall limiters, compressors, "ducking" side-chain compression, and so forth on individual instruments, listen to the snare drum rimshots in the right channel, where it should be easy to hear that the snare drum rim shots have a massive amount of reverb, which is quite different from the overall reverb of the entire song . . .

[NOTE: This is done with music notation and VSTi virtual instruments in NOTION 3 and produced, mixed, and mastered in Digital Performer 7, and some of the instruments are doubled or tripled, which is an easy way to have more control of placement, where I usually have three snare drums panned far-left, top-center, and far-right in NOTION, so that I can fine-tune where each snare drum rimshot is heard depending on what is being played and so forth, which I also do with the kick drum. And for the bass instruments, which usually is a set of instruments rather than just a single bass instrument, I double each one of them. Everything is much nicer with NOTION 4 and Digital Performer 8 running in 64-bit mode, but I used a lot of IK Multimedia instruments and the 32-bit version of MachFIve 3 on this song, and while MachFive 3 also runs in 64-mode, the IK Multimedia VSTi virtual instruments continue to be 32-bit only, which is a bit annoying, but IK Multimedia will release 64-bit versions sometime in the not so distant future . . . ]

"I Want To Dance With You" (The Surf Whammys) -- Basic Rhythm Section and Melody -- MP3

And for reference, at present the only time I use sends is for doing stereo side-chain "ducking". For everything else I use effects inserts and tailor a specific set of effects for each instrument and voice, but as noted I also use a small set of effects on the Master stereo output track, mostly to control the overall level and to add a tiny bit of reverb, echo, and vacuum-tube blur as an overall texture, where I use Saturn (FabFilter Software Instruments) to add the vacuum-tube blur and the T-RackS CS Grand Brickwall Limiter to exert final control over the volume level, which is fabulous . . .

Fabulous!

P. S. You must have a calibrated full-range studio monitor system with a flat equal loudness curve at 85 dB SPL if you expect to be able to fine-tune everything, and there is a link in my next post to this discussion which explains this fact in vast detail and in my view is the definitive text on the subject, since I wrote it, really . . .

Really!

[Surfwhammy]

I still struggle with getting good, clear mixes. I'm getting better, but still have a way to go.

I had the same problem until I had an epiphany about two or so years ago and embarked on a quest to discover what George Martin did for the Beatles--which was a lot--and it was during this quest that I finally got around to taking care of the studio monitor system here in the sound isolation studio, which is one of the primary aspects of being able to produce, mix, and master accurately, because you need to be able to hear what is recorded accurately if you expect (a) to be able to fine-tune it correctly and (b) to have it sound the way you want it to sound . . .

Producing, mixing, and mastering while listening with headphones will not work, because each ear hears something completely independent of what the other ear hears, although it is convenient when you are working on a song and are focused more on individual instruments and voices, which is the way I do it, but at some point when the song is becoming complete I switch to listening to the music played through the studio monitor system, which is a calibrated full-range system with a flat equal loudness curve at 85 dB SPL, which is the optimal listening level for producing, mixing, and mastering, where the key as explained in the following like to one of my ongoing topics in the IK Multimedia FORUM is to follow the "big and heavy" rule of acoustic physics, which in simple terms maps to the requirement that deep bass has to be reproduced with "big and heavy" loudspeakers (or "woofers") and is the reason that there are no commercial-off-the-shelf (COTS) full-range studio monitor systems manufactured by anyone anywhere on this planet, other than by custom design, typically done by a degreed audio engineer or whatever, although if you know a bit about acoustic physics and sound reinforcement, then you can do it yourself . . .

The Fabulous Affordable Studio Monitor System Project (IK Multimedia FORUM)

I should have realized this perhaps seven or so years ago, but (a) I was trying to save money and (b) it did not occur to me that every studio monitor system manufacturer on this planet is a sneaky weasel, so I skipped doing the acoustic physics and sound reinforcement work based on the vastly incorrect presumption that headphones would work, but so what . . .

So what!

During that time I methodically worked through an exhaustive list of all the other stuff that causes problems, and after a while nothing was left on the list but the studio monitor system, which is the way it works sometimes and is fine with me . . .

Specifically, I define "full-range" as the full range of normal human hearing (20-Hz to 20,000-Hz) but extended a bit into the subsonic range (perhaps down to 10-Hz), and it is vastly important to be able to hear the deep bass and to feel the subsonic bass, which you do by having a fully floated floor, because this is what makes it possible to avoid being deluded by the "Missing Fundamental" auditory illusion . . .

Regarding the "big and heavy" aspect, the sound isolation studio is approximately 6.5 feet wide by 12 feet long and 7 feet high, which is not much bigger than a walk-in closet, and I use a pair of Kustom KCP15P self-powered 100-watt Class AB 15" two-way monitors for the upper bass, midrange, and high frequencies and a pair of Kustom self-powered 200-watt 12" deep bass subwoofers for the low frequencies and subsonic bass, but I run them a low volume, since the Kustom loudspeaker units are designed for use in a DJ/PA sound reinforcement for a small nightclub and if not set to a very low volume actually are dangerous to use in such a small space, but I know what I am doing and I have a set of OSHA approved ear protectors and a NADY DSM-1 Digital SPL Meter, which I use to check everything and to ensure that even when the volume level on the Mac Pro and MOTU 838mk3 Hybrid is maximum, the level in the studio isolation studio is in the range of 85 to 90 dB SPL, which is the upper limit of what is generally safe for a few hours at a time and is the only way to mix DISCO, Pop, and other such genres, because you simply do not know how everything interacts until you crank it to the upper limit for safe listening, and by running the Kustom loudspeaker units a low volume I can push the deep bass into the subsonic range safely with a Behringer DEQ2496 Ultra-Curve Pro Mastering Processor and Real-Time Analyzer, and I use the ARC System 2 (IK Multimedia) to verify that everything is correctly calibrated, which is fabulous . . .

Fabulous!

P. S. Most listening rooms and sound isolation studios also need acoustic treatments for such things as deep bass standing waves and so forth, where after I did the initial set of calibrations I discovered that there was a deep bass standing wave from 40-Hz to 70-Hz, and I corrected it by putting a bunch of rolls of fiberglass insulation and cubes of compressed cellulose insulation in the sound isolation studio, which works wonderfully and does not cost a lot . . .

Explained another way, you want your listening room or sound isolation studio to be dry and neutral, which maps to the room having as little affect on the sound reproduced by the calibrated full-range studio monitor system as possible, since in the grand scheme of everything you want to be able to hear and to feel what you are doing as accurately as possible, which basically maps to transforming your listening room or studio into a finely-tuned instrument, which you "play" when you are wearing the producer, mixing engineer, and mastering engineer hats, for sure . . .

For sure!

P. P. S. There is more to it than just having a calibrated full-range studio monitor system, but once you get this done, it becomes possible to focus on a new set of things that appear on the list when you can hear what is happening accurately, all of which maps to making progress, really . . .

Really!

[idiotSavant]

I use a VST plug-in with Notion, Virtual Sound Stage. It's pretty inexpensive (about $100 US) and pretty effective, with presets for a lot of sound libraries. It not only places instruments in their "correct" pan and distance location, but does this by introducing early reflections for a psycho-acoustic effect as well. You can move instruments around graphically in the interface on a (get it?) virtual sound stage, which is fun. I currently use this in combination with LiquidSonics Reverberate, which is a VST/AU plug-in convolution reverb. It's also very reasonably priced (about $90 US) and sounds pretty darn good.

http://www.parallax-audio.com/
http://liquidsonics.com/

That being said, my ultimate goal is to purchase MIR Pro 24 by VSL, which can be used either as a processor overlay to Vienna Ensemble OR (and this is key) as a standalone VST. I've tried it for a month as a fully functional demo. It's a phenomenal piece of software combining flawless convolution reverb with pan/distance setting, with a beautiful interface that lets you place an instrument in an actual space location (I'm an architect in "real" life so this part really gives me goose bumps!) and the effect basically replicates instruments in real rooms (you can select the rooms from some of the finest concert halls and recording studios in the world). But all that comes with a price - about $350 US for the basic software and another $250-350 for required add-on "room packs", which are the convolution samples used to generate the reverb effect. I'd highly recommend trying the demo. It can plug directly into Notion and works flawlessly (at least on my old Mac) or can plug into any other DAW program (works great in Reaper).

http://www.vsl.co.at/en/211/497/1687/2036/1722.htm

Enjoy!

Michael
http://michaelmyers08.wix.com/imso

[dranck]

Some great suggestions. I was talking with a friend of mine who graduated from recording school and his suggestions were directly in line with your's Surfwhammy. I used to have a good near-field monitor set and amp, but sold them along with the rest of my equipment (<slaps face>) a few years ago. Your tip about headphones vs. monitors is especially useful. I guess I have some hardware to buy in my future. I'll do what I can to acoustically prep my "studio" too.

idiotSavant I'll definitely take a look at those 2 plugins. I like the idea of graphically placing instruments in the field and the prices are reasonable.

Thanks again for the help.

- Dave

[fabiolcati]

I can confirm that Virtual Sound Stage is an excellent tool.
I regularly use VSL presets with GPO (someday I will customize it, since I like to have the Violin I facing Violin II).
For my latest rendering — woodwind quartet — I'm working with Berlin Woodwinds presets: great ones!
Truly recommended.

[idiotSavant]

Fabio, Berlin woodwinds is a Kontact instrument, yes?

[fabiolcati]

Yes. Check it out at http://www.orchestraltools.com/page2/index.php
It is quite expensive, but cheaper than VSL...
Oddly, while it runs in Kontakt Player, you need full Kontakt to run the Expansion.