Attention:

Welcome to the old forum. While it is no longer updated, there is a wealth of information here that you may search and learn from.

To partake in the current forum discussion, please visit https://forums.presonus.com

Is Notion 4 compatible with ReWire 2 ?

A Forum to Discuss NOTION

Is Notion 4 compatible with ReWire 2 ?

Postby iamnemo » Wed May 29, 2013 11:22 pm

Is it possible to use Notion as a ReWire 2 slave in my DAW (SONAR set up as the ReWire 2 master) and "see" MIDI channels sending info from Notion to SONAR ?

As described here http://www.propellerheads.se/products/r ... et_article ReWire 2 is capable of transmitting 255x16 channels of MIDI information in addition to audio while ReWire 1 shares only audio.

If it is indeed possible how does one set it up? I'm interested in the MIDI channels. Does it mean that it could be possible to send ALL MIDI data (CC's, program changes, etc.) from Notion to the DAW? Notion could then take charge of all articulations in notation and though ReWire 2 change patches accordingly in the VSTi (which would then be loaded in the DAW instead of Notion).

If not: are there any plans for Rewire 2 compatibility in Notion?
User avatar
iamnemo
 
Posts: 66
Joined: Wed Mar 21, 2012 3:41 pm
Location: Québec, Canada

Re: Is Notion 4 compatible with ReWire 2 ?

Postby Surfwhammy » Thu May 30, 2013 2:15 am

iamnemo wrote:Is it possible to use Notion as a ReWire 2 slave in my DAW (SONAR set up as the ReWire 2 master) and "see" MIDI channels sending info from Notion to SONAR ?


NOTION 4 supports ReWire 2 in both 32-bit mode and 64-bit mode, but not at the same time, so all the applications participating in a 32-bit ReWire 2 session need to be 32-bit, and all the applications participating in a 64-bit ReWire 2 session need to be 64-bit, and this includes the VSTi virtual instruments, as well as on Apple computers the Audio Unit (AU) virtual instruments, if you are using AU virtual instruments . . .

[NOTE: There are a few very important rules for doing ReWire 2 with NOTION 4, as is the case with every application involved in a ReWire 2 session, but the rules are relatively simple. It is useful to understand that ReWire 2 is doing so much work in the background, some of which involves operating system internals, that it tends to be a bit sensitive to the way various parameters are specified, to the point that if something is not configured correctly, then nothing works, but the good side of this is that when everything is correctly configured ReWire 2 and the various applications that support ReWire 2 work very nicely and accurately. Making sense of ReWIre 2 and how to configure everything correctly can be a bit frustrating at first, primarily because it usually is a new technology for most folks, but it is very powerful and it works, so the best advice is to ask questions when you encounter a problem, where it is important to ask questions here in the Notion Music FORUM and perhaps elsewhere, because a lot of the ReWire 2 stuff is not documented so well in user manuals, which is understandable since fully documenting how to do ReWire 2 in a user manual in a way that covers every application on both Windows and Apple computers is a bit like trying to explain how to fly a B-2 Stealth Bomber on the back of a box Kellogg's Frosted Flakes® in the sense that it cannot be done, so trying to do it is a bit frivolous, although I do it here in the Notion Music FORUM for folks who do their digital music production on the Mac using either Logic Pro or Digital Performer, which I can do because I do everything on the Mac and use a very specific set of applications, virtual instruments, and effects plug-ins, and I do a lot of experiments to discover how everything works and to verify that it actually does work, hence if you do everything on the Mac and use the same software applications I use, then I can tell you exactly how it works in perhaps 100 or so 10,000 word posts or a small book, really . . . :P ]

Image

This is the link to the SONAR X2 documentation for ReWire 2, and it provides information on ReWire 2 and SONAR X2 . . .

SONAR X2 and ReWire 2 (Cakewalk)

There are limitations imposed by SONAR X2 on what it allows in ReWire 2 sessions, and it does not appear to support what you want to do in exactly the way you described it, but what you described is a somewhat non-standard way of using NOTION 4, a Digital Audio Workstation (DAW) application, MIDI, and virtual instruments, although if you were doing this with Digital Performer 8 (MOTU), which is available in both Windows and Mac versions, then it might be possible, at least on the Mac, although I need to ponder it for a while before I decide whether it can be done . . .

[NOTE: In addition to having a Windows version, Digital Performer 8 adds support for VSTi virtual instruments, which is new, since earlier versions of Digital Performer only ran on the Mac and supported Audio Unit (AU) virtual instruments and effects plug-ins . . . ]

Digital Performer 8 (MOTU)

Observing that I do everything involving digital music production here in the sound isolation studio on a 2.8-GHz 8-core Mac Pro (early-2008) with 20GB of memory, where Digital Performer 8 (MOTU) is my primary DAW application, which I augment with Reason 6.5 (Propellerhead Software), what I can state at present with certainty is that when Digital Performer 8 is the ReWire 2 host controller and both NOTION 4 and Reason 6.5 are ReWire 2 slaves, it is virtually trivial to use a NOTION 4 External MIDI staff to control and play a Reason 6.5 synthesizer, where the MIDI notes and commands originate in the music notation specified for the NOTION 4 External MIDI staff and are sent to Reason 6.5 via a "virtual MIDI cable" (which is a built-in and very handy functionality provided by Mac OS X) . . .

[NOTE: There are "virtual MIDI cables" for Windows users, but they are done by third-party developers and are not included in Windows, as best as I can determine, but so what! You can get "virtual MIDI cable" software for Windows . . . ]

Similarly, which I also have verified, it is possible use a NOTION 4 External MIDI staff to play instruments using the standalone Aria engine, and this is the link to the video that I created to show how it works . . .

Controlling the Aria Player with NOTION 4 External MIDI Staves (Surfwhammy) -- QuickTime MPEG 4 Movie -- MP4 (50MB, approximately 6 minutes and 30 seconds)

Whether you can do this on a Windows machine is another matter, but as a general rule I think that you can do it on a Windows machine, although I cannot prove it, since as noted (see above) I do everything on the Mac . . .

I have not tried this where a VSTi or AU virtual instrument is loaded into Digital Performer 8 and is receiving MIDI notes and commands from a NOTION 4 External MIDI staff in a ReWire 2 session, but intuitively I see no immediately obvious reason why this cannot be done, and it suggests an interesting experiment, which I might do as time allows . . .

From a different but related perspective, Reason 6.5 is a DAW application, and I have verified that a NOTION 4 External MIDI staff can send MIDI notes and commands to Reason 6.5 for purposes of playing a Reason 6.5 synthesizer in a ReWire 2 session where Digital Performer 8 is the ReWire 2 host controller and both NOTION 4 and Reason 6.5 are ReWire 2 slaves, where this is the video I did to demonstrate how this works on the Mac . . .

Digital Performer 8, NOTION 4, Reason 6.5, External MIDI, ReWire 2 on the Mac -- QuickTime Movie -- MOV (63.7MB, approximately 14 minutes and 45 seconds)

I do not have SONAR X2, so there is not much I can state with any certainty regarding SONAR X2, NOTION 4, virtual instruments, and MIDI, but I have Digital Performer 8, and MOTU just released the Windows version of Digital Performer 8, which is intriguing in this context, because the MOTU folks are very skilled and diligent with respect to ensuring that everything works, hence I think it is reasonable to suggest that if I can do with Digital Performer 9 on the Mac Pro here in the sound isolation studio what you want to do on your Windows machine, then you should be able to do it with the Windows version of Digital Performer 8 . . .

The only caveat that comes to mind at the moment involves scripting and event recognition, which might be necessary to expand the set of MIDI commands you can send from NOTION 4 via a NOTION 4 External MIDI staff in a ReWire 2 session, and I mention this caveat because there are limitations on the types of MIDI commands that NOTION 4 can send directly, as I understand it, where it is important to observe that while I am coming along nicely in my expanding knowledge of MIDI, I am not an expert on MIDI, yet . . .

My thinking in this regard is that with an advanced virtual instrument like MachFive 3 (MOTU), it should be possible to use certain notes or NOTION 4 supported MIDI commands to trigger events in MachFive 3, which in turn can be used with MachFIve 3 scripting to transform the MIDI commands into whatever other MIDI commands you desire, although this also is something I have not done, yet . . .

THOUGHTS

The easy way to do some or all of this is to use NOTION 4 to host the virtual instruments, which NOTION 4 does, and then to use a ReWire 2 session to cause the NOTION 4 generated audio to be recorded in the DAW application as soundbites or whatever SONAR X2 calls them, where in this scenario SONAR X2 will the the ReWire 2 host controller and NOTION 4 will be the ReWire 2 slave . . .

Explained another way, you have the correct general idea, but there is a much easier way to do it than the way you described, but I am intrigued by the strategy you described, and there might be a way to do it, although I am not certainly precisely why you would want to do it that way, hence it is intriguing mostly from the perspective of my being a complete and total geek and wanting to do it simply because it is way out there in terms of stuff you can do but probably never want to do, which is fabulous . . .

Fabulous!
:ugeek:

P. S. Another thing that ReWire 2 (Propellerhead Software) does is to handle MIDI synchronization, at least on the Mac, and this is vastly helpful, since the MIDI stuff on the Mac is synchronized automagically in a ReWire 2 session . . .
Last edited by Surfwhammy on Thu May 30, 2013 2:44 am, edited 2 times in total.
The Surf Whammys

Sinkhorn's Dilemma: Every paradox has at least one non-trivial solution!
User avatar
Surfwhammy
 
Posts: 1137
Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2010 4:45 am

Re: Is Notion 4 compatible with ReWire 2 ?

Postby iamnemo » Thu May 30, 2013 2:38 am

Thanks for your reply.

My reason to try to do it this way is to keep Notion alive as in audio ReWire but still be able to edit CC curves in my DAW without losing Notion's ability to send the correct key switches to the VSTi's. The ReWire audio-only does not allow that but I've used it in the past for other reasons.

I also don't want to export a MIDI file because it's static and creates too many back and forths when the score is still evolving.

What I normally can do is the following: I use the MIDI OUT ports/channels in Notion 4 and direct them, trough LoopMIDI, to the SONAR MIDI tracks which control the corresponding instruments, i.e. the VSTi's are loaded as instruments in SONAR. That works well EXCEPT that I lose all the key switches information, I receive only the MIDI note messages so a change from arco to pizz for example is not reflected in the output.

I know about (and tried) a somewhat similar setup where, instead of using Notion's MIDI OUT's, the utility staff is directed to a VSL VEPRO5 instance in which instruments are loaded (using Notion 4 presets) and all other staves point to it using Shift-I, each with its own MIDI channel. In that case all key switches are transmitted properly.

How can I setup a Notion staff that talks to say MIDI OUT Port A Channel 1 AND transmits all the articulation data (key switches) properly?
Last edited by iamnemo on Thu May 30, 2013 8:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
iamnemo
 
Posts: 66
Joined: Wed Mar 21, 2012 3:41 pm
Location: Québec, Canada

Re: Is Notion 4 compatible with ReWire 2 ?

Postby Surfwhammy » Thu May 30, 2013 7:02 am

iamnemo wrote:Thanks for your reply.

My reason to try to do it this way is to keep Notion alive as in audio ReWire but still be able to edit CC curves in my DAW without losing Notion's ability to send the correct key switches to the VSTi's. The ReWire audio-only does not allow that but I've used it in the past for other reasons.

I also don't want to export a MIDI file because it's static and creates too many back and forth when the score is still evolving.

What I normally can do is the following: I use the MIDI OUT ports/channels in Notion 4 and direct them, trough LoopMIDI, to the SONAR MIDI tracks which control the corresponding instruments, i.e. the VSTi's are loaded as instruments in SONAR. That works well EXCEPT that I lose all the key switches information, I receive only the MIDI note messages so a change from arco to pizz for example is not reflected in the output.

I know about (and tried) a somewhat similar setup where, instead of using Notion's MIDI OUT's, the utility staff is directed to a VSL VEPRO5 instance in which instruments are loaded (using Notion 4 presets) and all other staves point to it using Shift-I, each with its own MIDI channel. In that case all key switches are transmitted properly.

How can setup a Notion staff that talks to say MIDI OUT Port A Channel 1 AND transmits all the articulation data (key switches) properly?


Glad to help! :)

I am limited in the specific help I can provide, since you are doing everything on a Windows machine and I am working on a Mac, but at least I can show you what happens on the Mac, which might be a bit of help in discovering how to get it working in Windows . . .

Now that I understand what you want to do, I did an experiment to verify that NOTION 4 is sending all the information when it is controlling a standalone virtual instrument via music notation on a NOTION 4 External MIDI staff, which I did using the standalone user interfaces for the Aria Player (Aria Engine) and MachFive 3 (MOTU), where to be specific, these two virtual instruments are running on the Mac as separate and independent applications. They are not running as VSTi virtual instruments in NOTION 4 . . .

This NOTION 4 score has two External MIDI staves, and it has no NOTION 4 Bundled or Expansion Instruments and no VSTi virtual instruments, hence NOTION 4 is only sending the MIDI notes and commands via a "virtual MIDI cable" that is connected via the operating system and the applications . . .

In the high-resolution video, you will see MachFive 3 first and then Aria, where both have Grand Pianos assigned, and you can verify that NOTION 4 is sending all the MIDI notes and commands by looking in the MIDI Spy window, which is the application at the right of the screen in the video . . .

[NOTE: The Aria Player is controlled by the top NOTION 4 External MIDI staff (MIDI Port A Channel 1), and MachFive 3 is controlled by the bottom NOTION 4 External MIDI staf (MIDI Port A Channel 2). This is a high-resolution file, so if you download it, you can watch it in high-resolution if you have a QuickTime Player or whatever one uses in the Windows universe. If you use Firefox for Windows and have the QuickTime plug-in, then you can watch it in Firefox, as well . . . ]

NOTION 4 External MIDI to MachFive 3 and Aria with MIDI Spy on the Mac -- QuickTIme Movie MP4 (18.8MB, approximately 1 minute and 38 seconds)

In part due to the types of song I do--mostly DISCO and Pop, where the primary articulation and dynamic are "pulsating" and "loud", respectively--I usually avoid using articulations and dynamics, so I am not the "go to" person for tips on articulations and dynamics, but I used the NOTION 4 Palette and added a bunch of articulations and dynamics that I recognize and use occasionally, although on the other side of the coin I do use articulations for the NOTION 4 Bundled Electric Guitar, so for some instruments I know a bit about articulations . . .

This experiment verifies that on the Mac, NOTION 4 External MIDI staves are sending both the MIDI notes and the MIDI commands and instructions for articulations and dynamics to the extent that NOTION 4 supports such articulations and dynamics, where for reference as best as I understand everything, NOTION 4 supports most of the articulations and dynamics, but there are some articulations and dynamics that NOTION 4 currently does not support, where as an example I recall that for a while NOTION did not send the MIDI commands for Pedal Up and Pedal Down, but it is sending them now, as you can observe and hear . . .

[NOTE: Technically, I am not certain that NOTION 4 actually is sending Pedal Up and Pedal Down messages, since watching the keys in the Aria Player, it appears that NOTION 4 is sending Note ON messages but not the Note OFF messages while Pedal Down is specified, which probably is different from sending Pedal Up and Pedal Down commands, but it sounds the same to me . . . ]

Whether this is what happens when NOTION 4 is running in Windows is another matter, and I have no way to verify it, as is the case with determining whether SONAR X2 or any other DAW application for Windows receives all the MIDI notes, commands, instructions, and so forth, but intuition suggests that some of the DAW applications probably do receive all the MIDI stuff . . .

THOUGHTS

If you have a real keyboard synthesizer like an Alesis ION Analog Modeling Synthesizer or a KORG Triton Music Workstation (88-Keys), which is what I have at present here in the sound isolation studio, or perhaps a newer keyboard synthesizer that does MIDI, as well as a MIDI interface for your Windows machine and some real MIDI cables, then you can do an experiment where you send MIDI notes, commands, instructions, and so forth from a NOTION 4 External MIDI staff to a real external MIDI keyboard synthesizer, which should allow you to determine whether NOTION 4 is sending all the MIDI stuff, and I suggest this because one possibility is that the "virtual MIDI cable" you currently are using is not transmitting all the MIDI stuff sent by NOTION 4 . . .

On the Mac, NOTION 4 External MIDI staves send all the MIDI stuff, and it is easy to verify this by watching the MIDI traffic via MIDI Spy, which is a handy utility application for the Mac . . .

The other possibility is that SONAR X2 or whichever version of SONAR you are using is filtering and discarding everything but the MIDI note ON and OFF instructions . . .

I did a few initial experiments with Digital Performer (MOTU), but (a) I have never done MIDI with Digital Performer and (b) I have no idea how it works, hence at present I cannot tell you for certain that Digital Performer 8 will do what you want to do, but after a while I will call the MOTU folks and ask them about it, since this tends to be what I do on the rare occasions that making sense of something requires reading the user manual, since the MOTU folks usually can tell me what to do in a few minutes, which is vastly easier than trying to make sense of it by reading the user manual, in part because user manuals usually are written by professional technical writers who never actually use the software, hence have no idea how anything works, with the result that the information in user manuals is correct in terms of English grammar and spelling but makes absolutely no sense, which is the case because the professional technical writers get their information from the software engineers, all of whom are computer geeks and have done everything so many times that they think everyone else knows all the shortcuts and so forth, which nearly never is the case, where as an example since among other things I am a software developer, it took me about a month of working 18 hours a day doing experiments to discover how to do ReWire 1.7 with NOTION 3, which included consultations with the MOTU folks, and I have a university degree in Computer Science . . .

Yet, now that I know how ReWire works, I can tell someone how to do it on the Mac in about five minutes, because it is extraordinarily easy to do on the Mac - - - - - once you discover how to do it, where it is useful to understand that all the available user manuals and various documentation are helpful, which is all I care to say about it at the moment . . .

And as part of the ongoing effort to have FUN with ReWIre, I became a registered third-party ReWire developer, which took approximately 18 months and mostly happened (a) because the folks at Propellerhead Software want to have as many third-party Rack Extension developers as possible and (b) my application was sitting there in the queue with all the correct answers and information at exactly the right time, which now maps to my having all the detailed internal information on ReWire, including the ReWire Software Development Kit (SDK) and documentation, which maps to my having a much better understanding of how everything works, although I cannot write anything about it that is covered by the Non-Disclosure Agreement (NDA), but I can tell you that it is an amazing technology that works wonderfully when it is implemented correctly, which is the responsibility of the application(s) and for Digital Performer 8, Reason 6.5, and NOTION 4 on the Mac is done correctly, which is fabulous . . .

Fabulous! :D

P. S. Perhaps some of the Windows folks can provide more specific information, including whether it is possible to do what you want to do on a Windows machine? :idea:
The Surf Whammys

Sinkhorn's Dilemma: Every paradox has at least one non-trivial solution!
User avatar
Surfwhammy
 
Posts: 1137
Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2010 4:45 am

Re: Is Notion 4 compatible with ReWire 2 ?

Postby iamnemo » Thu May 30, 2013 9:48 am

Thanks again for your help!

I also had tested the transmission of information to an external stand-alone synth via MIDI OUT and I can confirm that it works EXCEPT for everything that is instrument-dependent, like key switches (which are just regular out-of-range notes). The problem is that choosing MIDI OUT as an output replaces your instrument choice, i.e. MIDI OUTputs are treated as generic instruments.

I thought that by using an auxiliary staff I could get around that (since it works with VSL VEPRO5 for example). I did populate 2 staves like this:

Staff 1 (the auxiliary staff): instrument set as MIDI OUT A 1. No music on the staff.
Staff 2 (the music staff): instrument set as VSL VI Pro redirected using Shift-I to Staff 1

But articulations (key switches) are not transmitted (e.g. arco to pizz) BUT it works if instead of MIDI OUT I use VEPRO. That confuses me.

I wish each instrument in Notion could be defined as INTERNAL (a VST plugin running inside Notion) or EXTERNAL, i.e. its output redirected to a MIDI OUT port/channel. I think this would open up very powerful possibilities.
User avatar
iamnemo
 
Posts: 66
Joined: Wed Mar 21, 2012 3:41 pm
Location: Québec, Canada

Re: Is Notion 4 compatible with ReWire 2 ?

Postby wcreed51 » Thu May 30, 2013 10:20 am

Being able to assign rules by staff should address this problem. Assuming we ever get that function.
Bill Reed
Notion 4, Sibelius 7.5, Finale 2011/14, Overture 4, Cubase 7.5
Win8 x64, 32GB RAM
M-Audio ProFire 2626
Kontakt, VSL VI Pro, VE Pro, EWQL Orch, Choirs and Pianos
User avatar
wcreed51
 
Posts: 754
Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2009 10:50 am
Location: Berkshires, MA USA

Re: Is Notion 4 compatible with ReWire 2 ?

Postby iamnemo » Thu May 30, 2013 11:36 am

wcreed51 wrote:Being able to assign rules by staff should address this problem. Assuming we ever get that function.

So I guess we are all waiting for that elusive "Shift-Y" function, right?
User avatar
iamnemo
 
Posts: 66
Joined: Wed Mar 21, 2012 3:41 pm
Location: Québec, Canada

Re: Is Notion 4 compatible with ReWire 2 ?

Postby wcreed51 » Thu May 30, 2013 11:40 am

Yes we are...

The iPad app seems to have been getting all the development resources lately. Now that the big update is released, perhaps Notion 4 will get some attention again.
Bill Reed
Notion 4, Sibelius 7.5, Finale 2011/14, Overture 4, Cubase 7.5
Win8 x64, 32GB RAM
M-Audio ProFire 2626
Kontakt, VSL VI Pro, VE Pro, EWQL Orch, Choirs and Pianos
User avatar
wcreed51
 
Posts: 754
Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2009 10:50 am
Location: Berkshires, MA USA

Re: Is Notion 4 compatible with ReWire 2 ?

Postby iamnemo » Thu May 30, 2013 2:10 pm

wcreed51 wrote:Being able to assign rules by staff should address this problem. Assuming we ever get that function.

Just a thought: wouldn't it be better to assign rules at the voice level instead of at the staff level, since a single can contain several instruments (voices).

For example one could assign VSL Flute 1 to the first flute voice and VSL Flute 2 to the second and still be able to put both on the same staff. Would also be useful for doing the same with two (three, four) libraries when there's a risk of phasing.
User avatar
iamnemo
 
Posts: 66
Joined: Wed Mar 21, 2012 3:41 pm
Location: Québec, Canada

Re: Is Notion 4 compatible with ReWire 2 ?

Postby pcartwright » Thu May 30, 2013 8:47 pm

iamnemo wrote:For example one could assign VSL Flute 1 to the first flute voice and VSL Flute 2 to the second and still be able to put both on the same staff. Would also be useful for doing the same with two (three, four) libraries when there's a risk of phasing.


There is a way to do this (albeit a little tedious).
1. Create the instruments that you want to use (say GPO solo flute and Notion's flute) in two separate staves. Once we have the "shift Y" ability, you could then assign the rules you want to these two staves.
2. Create a third basic staff and title it "2 flutes" or something similar.
3. Type "shift + i" to open the instrument change dialogue box.
4. Click on "show all instruments" and choose instrument you want for voice 1 (let's assume GPO flute)
5. Click on the drop down that says "all voices" and select "staff voice 1"
6. Click on the top side of the basic staff (named "2 flutes"). Voice 1 for this staff will route through the staff with the GPO flute and use those rules.
7. Repeat steps 3-5 but choose the Notion flute and "staff voice 2".
8. Click on the bottom side of the basic staff. Like before, notes entered in voice 2 will route through to the Notion flute.
9. Go to Score Setup and hide the GPO and Notion flute staves. You're left with a single staff routed to two separate instruments using two different rule sets.
pcartwright
 
Posts: 796
Joined: Sat Dec 05, 2009 2:47 pm

Next

Return to NOTION

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 6 guests