NOTION Music Forum

I would appreciate a discussion for this Newb of the relative merits and considerations of composing with notation in Notion and then exporting a finalized score to a DAW for fine tuning of the audible results versus composing with tracks in a DAW to end up with a finalized audio product and then exporting to Notion for a finalized score.

I realize this is a religious question to some extent and alot is dependent upon just personal workflow preference, e.g. whether you like to compose in notation first or with tracks and VSTi's, and whether you really need an audio file AND a score. But surely there are lots of other considerations and benefits to starting with notation or a DAW.

For example, I've heard exporting midi from a DAW ends up with a messy first score in a notation program and cleanup of the score is very work intensive. But I'm wondering if quantizing in the DAW prior to export fixes alot of this. But of course I don't think there is a "humanizing " feature in Notion to regain the performance realism that comes from a pure audio/midi file in a DAW.

Similarly, starting with creating a final score in Notion aleviates that problem of cleanup of a score in a DAW from a midi import. But it seems you then may have a lot of work causing all the articulations and score markings to export and play correctly when exported into a DAW and you might have an equally work intensive project making your Notion score sound real in a DAW. Although at least you could avail yourself of the "humanizing" feature in many DAWS at least insofar as avoiding machine-like sounds are concerned when playing a Notion score in a DAW.

And how many of the score details placed in a Notion score survive in the midi file exported into a DAW and are hearable ?

Thanks for any insight.

If you use the same VSTi in both Notion and your DAW, then all the articulations, etc. will export properly in the MIDI file. If you compose in Notion using the Notion LSO instruments, then you'll have to recreate everything in your DAW.

>But of course I don't think there is a "humanizing " feature in Notion<

From the Notion 4 manual:
"Randomize Events: You can randomize the events in the Sequencer Overlay view by clicking
Tools>Randomize Events. There you can experiment with different settings to humanize your output."

There are several strategies for doing digital music production, but the system I prefer at present begins with a NOTION 4 score, which at minimum comprises a Piano to provide reference tuning pitches and a Kick Drum or Snare Drum playing quarter notes (a.k.a., "quavers") as the "click track" for the desired tempo, where I usually do a bit of copying and pasting in the NOTION 4 score to create enough quarter notes for the "click track" to map to 10 minutes, which is plenty of time for a typical DISCO or Pop song . . .

Once this is done, I record the NOTION 4 generated audio as soundbites in the Digital Audio Workstation (DAW) application via ReWire 2 (Propellerhead Software), which here in the sound isolation studio is Digital Performer 8 (MOTU), and this becomes the foundation for the song, which is important because by doing it this way it becomes practical to use the DAW application for real instruments and voices but to use NOTION 4 for the virtual instruments, and since it is easy on the Mac to use NOTION 4 External MIDI staves to control and to play Reason (Propellerhead Software)--with the current and new version being Reason 6.5 and Reason 7, respectively--this extends the system, which also works for NOTION 4 controlling real MIDI instruments like the KORG Triton Music Workstation (88-Keys) and maps in a practical way to being able to do everything in a way that has a common foundation, which is the basic NOTION 4 score . . .

You might decide initially to do the entire song with real instruments and voices, but since the real instruments and voices are tuned to the NOTION 4 reference pitches and are played and sung to the NOTION 4 generated "click track", if you later decide to have a bit of FUN doing orchestration with music notation and virtual instruments, then you just switch to NOTION 4 and have a bit of FUN, which you record as soundbites in the DAW application via a ReWire 2 session, and you can go back-and-forth from working with real instruments and singing to working with music notation and virtual instruments, which as noted (see above) also includes working with Reason and its virtual festival of synthesizers and effects but in a different way, which nevertheless can be done either within the Reason framework or with NOTION 4 External MIDI staves that control and play Reason instruments and Rack Extensions, as well as a combination of both native Reason and externally controlled Reason via music notation on NOTION 4 External MIDI staves . . .

A key aspect of this strategy or system involves doing the producing, mixing, and mastering in the DAW application, which is where signal processing and effects plug-ins are used, which is important because it focuses the DAW application primarily on a combination of recording real instruments and singing and doing producing, mixing, and mastering with the help of signal processor and effects plug-ins, while NOTION 4 is focused on generating the audio for virtual instruments that are controlled and played via music notation . . .

[NOTE: Yet another fascinating and virtual mind-boggling dimension of this strategy or system involves the ability to use elaborate sets of NOTION 4 scores via cloning and revising to have a thousand or more instruments done in layers, where the instruments are spread across a set of synchronized NOTION 4 scores, and by combining and merging already recorded soundbites and tracks in the DAW application you can do something similar, which is the key aspect of constructing elaborately orchestrated and produced songs in layers, with the key being to do the work with a bit of planning or at least in a way that makes it easy to add more orchestration, which is important to understand because even in the 64-bit universe there are practical limits to the number of instruments in a NOTION 4 score and to the number of channels or tracks in a DAW application project, where you make everything manageable by combining and merging sets of layers. This is the strategy that Phil Spector used for his "Wall of Sound", and it is the strategy that George Martin used when he produced the Beatles, and it works provided you do the planning and discover the basic set of rules for layering . . . ]

And to provide the most flexibility, I do everything "dry" in NOTION 4, where I peg the volume sliders to 0dB and set the panning to the desired locations, since among other outstanding features the NOTION 4 Mixer has true stereo panning controls, which is important because one of the rules is that it is easy to add reverberation and echoes ("wet" effects) but it is nearly impossible to remove "wet" effects, so by keeping the NOTION 4 generated audio "dry", this allows having a bit of FUN with "wet" effects in the DAW application in a way that allows non-destructive experimenting . . .

Regarding realism of virtual instruments, the key is to have a calibrated full-range studio monitor system, since this is the only way you can hear the sampled sounds and various articulations and dynamics accurately, where "calibrated full-range" refers specifically to a flat equal loudness curve at 85 dB SPL running from 20-Hz to 20,000-Hz, which is the normal range of human hearing and requires doing a bit of custom work with respect to assembling a set of components and amplified loudspeakers, including a pair of amplified deep bass subwoofers, because at the dawn of the early-21st century there are no calibrated full-range studio monitor systems available as commercial-off-the-shelf products on this planet, which is explained in one of my ongoing topics in the IK Multimedia FORUM . . .

The Fabulous Affordable Studio Monitor System Project (IK Multimedia)

Once you are able to hear the sampled sounds for virtual instruments accurately, you then can determine what needs to be done to make the virtual instruments sound as realistic as possible, which is combination of adjusting everything with articulations and dynamics in NOTION 4, as well as the user interfaces for VSTi virtual instruments, and doing a bit of enhancing with signal processors and effects plug-ins in the DAW application, and until you have a calibrated full-range studio monitor system, there is no way to determine how everything actually sounds, since headphones and "ear buds" will not work for a variety of reasons, including the fact that each ear hears something completely independent from what the other ear hears when you listen with headphones or "ear buds", which is huge problem when one is wearing the producing, mixing, and mastering hats, since explained another way you cannot produce, mix, and master using headphones and "ear buds", because it simply does not work, and the only strategy which works is to do producing, mixing, and mastering with a calibrated full-range studio monitor system using loudspeakers and deep bass subwoofers that satisfy the basic "big and heavy" rule of acoustic physics . . .

Another thing you can do with a DAW application, which at times is very handy, is to work with audio clips on a timeline, which is useful for techniques that are different from fixed music notation, which is one way to explain it . . .

And for reference, I do everything on Mac, since for me (a) it is easier and (b) I have verified via extensive experimenting and testing that everything works accurately and reliably with no problems . . .

I think this can be the case for Windows machines, but I have not verified it, since as noted I do everything on the Mac and generally avoid Windows, where it is useful to know that MOTU just released the Windows version of Digital Performer 8, which among other things should make it very easy to do ReWire 2 as well as to do scoring to video, since Digital Performer 8 has extensive professional level video scoring functionality . . .

From a high-level perspective, the stellar aspect of this system is that you have the option to use NOTION 4 native bundled and expansion instruments; a festival of third-party VSTi virtual instruments and sound libraries like MachFive 3 (MOTU), Addictive Drums and Addictive Keys (XLN Audio), Kontakt 5 (Native Instruments) and so forth; all the Reason synthesizers and Rack Extensions, which also can be used on real instruments and voices via the Reason Mixer, and includes being able to control and to play Reason instruments via music notation provided on NOTION 4 External MIDI staves or done within the Reason framework; and you can do all the stuff that a DAW application does, which when real MIDI instruments are included in the set of real instruments and singing maps to being able to do everything when one extends it with signal processors and effects plug-ins, and by basing it all at least on a minimal NOTION 4 score, you can work within whichever subsystem (NOTION 4, Reason, real instruments and singing, and DAW application) you desire, since by tuning to the NOTION 4 generated reference pitches and playing to the NOTION 4 generated "click track", everything is kept in tune and synchronized, which is fabulous . . .

Fabulous!

I used to go the route of DAW to notation software but the process of cleaning up the score was so tedious that I often just hand-entered everything to create the score. Many times when playing notes into a DAW, the end result sounds great, but the actual note values are less than perfect because of the nature of the sounds being used (slow attack, long release, etc.). This becomes even more apparent when electronic patches such as pads are used.

I find now with Notion 4 that going the other way 'round is much more preferable to me. Once I've created a score and exported it into Sonar, I may manually re-record some tracks, especially solos. Otherwise I'll use the controller envelopes to shape the tracks the way I want. I'll even add timbre-coloring patches (like a ff horn that fades in over the horn section during a crescendo).

I'm still new to Notion but this makes sense to me anyway.

- Dave

I've been working on achieving a workflow that combines the DAW and notation worlds seamlessly, and it finally seems to be flowing with Notion4 rewired to ableton. With Sibelius there was a drunken drift that was driving me mad.
But with Notion as master and Ableton as slave, so far it's rock solid. I don't see that I'll need to make click tracks as somebody was saying... and I can start things off with organic percussion loops if I want to , to give things a feel. And in the end i have a score in front of me, minus whatever live instruments I've recorded without writing lines first in Notion.
Thinking about it it might be a good idea to do ableton synth lines via external midi out of notion as well as the orchestral parts(which i'm doing in EWQLSO)...why not if it feels comfortable.
Here's to flowing music:)
ben

Hi fellow music monsters:)
an update on my journey with Notion and ableton live.
After much experimentation I have a nice way of working where ableton is the rewire master, and the midi is being routed from Notion into Ableton from staves that send external midi via mac's IAC ports.
This means that synch is rock solid( I had been trying with Notion as master, but synch was not perfect after a few minutes, and also this means no VST plugins will run in Ableton, and I could't record audio also.)
But like this I finally have a best of both worlds setup, where the score can develop alongside the audio side, and I can add CC automation and keyswitches in ableton with parallel tracks.

The only draw back is recording into Notion: realtime wont work, and the velocity overdub function won't work. They both behave strangely. But i can do step record, or mouse entry. Fine for sustained parts if I am already hearing what's needed, but for parts where velocity must be right and expressive, I can record into live and pass the midi clip (small file) over into Notion and "arrange" it into the orchestration., copying and going up and down octaves and around the orchestra, and harmonising.
This is a condensation of my discoveries, hope it makes sense to you guys.
Like bcarwell, I have long agonized over how to approach these questions, and I enjoy working with notation, so why not make it an integral part of the process instead of the last phase or the first phase, and remove the awkward transition process?
I intend to keep exploring the world of Notion rules, so that I can start getting the keyswitches right from inside Notion with technique markings/articulations.
Ben

ben amato wrote:I enjoy working with notation, so why not make it an integral part of the process instead of the last phase or the first phase, and remove the awkward transition process . . .

Excellent! This is what I do, and as you know, it works nicely and makes it possible to focus on composing and recording in layers, which is fabulous . . .

Fabulous!

ben amato wrote:The only draw back is recording into Notion: realtime wont work, and the velocity overdub function won't work. They both behave strangely.

Can you provide more information on this?

The reason I ask is that I did some experiments with real-time MIDI recording in NOTION 4 recently and discovered some useful information, some of which leads me to hypothesize that it is important to use an external digital audio and MIDI interface like the MOTU 828mk3 Hybrid and regular MIDI cables rather than to try to do it with USB MIDI . . .

If by real-time recording, you are referring to recording MIDI input from either a real MIDI keyboard or a virtual MIDI instrument in real-time to a NOTION 4 staff, then based on the various experiments I did recently, I think it works nicely, but you need to set a few parameters to get the necessary precision . . .

There is more detailed information on this in the following Notion Music FORUM topic:

Third Party MIDI (Notion Music FORUM)

On a related note, Ableton Live 9 is very nice, and it works accurately and smoothly on the Mac as a ReWire 2 host controller, as you have discovered . . .

Ableton Live 9 has limited functionality when working as a ReWire 2 slave, but then neither Digital Performer 8 (MOTU) nor Logic Pro 9 (Apple) work as a ReWire 2 slave, so in this respect Ableton Live 9 has the most ReWire 2 functionality . . .

I am doing a bit of guessing on this, but I think that the reason for the restrictions when Ableton Live 9 is acting as a ReWire 2 slave are there to avoid what one might call "ReWire 2 feedback loops", although it could be just a matter of practicality, since when there a DAW application involved it is the best and most logical choice for being the ReWIre 2 host controller . . .

THOUGHTS

My primary DAW application is Digital Performer 8 (MOTU), but I have done a bit of testing with the demo version of Ableton Live 9 (32-bit and more recently 64-bit), and I really like some of the features of Ableton Live 9. If my budget increases, I would like to add Ableton Live 9 to the digital music production system here in the sound isolation studio . . .

It requires more reading, studying, and experimenting to develop a complete system for doing digital music production, but it is well worth the effort, as you know . . .

Once you understand how everything interacts, you can switch from focusing on music notation in NOTION 4 to doing DAW application work or to having a bit of FUN with Reason 7 (Propellerhead Software), and this is a continual process rather than being limited to doing everything in exclusive one-time steps . . .

I usually begin with a basic rhythm section and melody sketch in NOTION 4, followed by recording the NOTION 4 generated audio as soundbites in Digital Performer 8 via a ReWire 2 session; and then I add add more stuff using some combination of (a) real instruments and singing in Digital Performer 8 or Reason 7; (b) synthesized enhancements in Reason 7; and (c) music notation and virtual instruments in NOTION 4, which includes using NOTION 4 External MIDI staves to control Reason 7 synthesizers and instruments, along with the other variations involving MIDI instruments, some of which are real, hence actually are included in (a) . . .

I construct songs in layers, and the nice thing about the complete digital music production system I use here in the sound isolation studio is that I can create new layers in several different ways at any particular time based on which of the various tools is best suited for creating the specific layer . . .

One of the new features of Reason 7 is that it has its own External MIDI Instrument (EMI) capabilities, which effectively moves some of the interactions among the various applications into nearly mind-boggling territory, where although I have not done the experiments necessary to verify the hypothesis, I think it is possible to have a few NOTION 4 External MIDI staves controlling Reason 7 synthesizers while Reason 7 External MIDI Instruments are controlling standalone VSTi virtual instruments, VSTi virtual instruments in NOTION 4, or AU or VSTi virtual instruments in Digital Performer 8, where everything is in a ReWire 2 session with Digital Performer 8 as the ReWire 2 host controller and both NOTION 4 and Reason 7 as ReWire 2 slaves . . .

The only part of the grand experiment that I have not done yet is the part which focuses on discovering how the new Reason 7 External MIDI Instrument functionality works and how it interacts with Digital Performer 8 and NOTION 4 . . .

Nevertheless, recently I did an experiment with the KORG Triton Music Workstation (88-Keys) as a MIDI instrument connected to the MOTU 828mk3 Hybrid using standard MIDI cables, and I was able to record in real-time MIDI notes with a high degree of accuracy to a VSTi virtual instrument staff in NOTION 4 that was assigned to Addictive Keys, which considering the IAC Driver capabilities of the Mac makes me think that this might be possible using a Reason 7 External MIDI Instrument instead of the KORG Triton, where in this scenario there also can be a few NOTION 4 External MIDI staves with music notation that plays Reason 7 synthesizers, which then creates the possibility of having a ReWire 2 session where Digital Performer 8 is the ReWire 2 host controller and among other things is recording a real instrument like a Fender American Deluxe Stratocaster, while at the same time NOTION 4 is playing a few Reason 7 synthesizers; Reason 7 is playing a few VSTi virtual instruments in NOTION 4; and both NOTION 4 and Reason 7 are sending their generated audio to Digital Performer 8, which is recording it in real-time on the fly as soundbites via ReWIre 2 . . .

Whether doing this makes any actual sense is another matter, but I am intrigued by it, because it almost becomes recursive, and I am vastly curious to discover whether the 2.8-GHz 8-core Mac Pro (early-2008) with 20GB of memory running Mac OS X 10.8.4 (Mountain Lion) and the various applications and virtual instruments can handle all the interactions in real-time on the fly . . .

For reference, I just did a quick experiment, and I was able to create an External MIDI Instrument (EMI) in a Reason 7 project that I use for experiments, to which I copied one of the already existing Reason 7 bass synthesizer parts; and I routed the output of the EMI to NOTION 4 by setting the NOTION 4 MIDI Input to IAC Bus 1, which I then used to record real-time MIDI in NOTION 4 on a staff that was assigned to the FabFilter Software Instruments Twin 2 VSTi virtual instrument synthesizer; and NOTION 4 recorded the MIDI notes sent from Reason 7, but when there is no music notation on the particular NOTION 4 staff, the Reason 7 EMI plays the Twin 2 synthesizer automagically, where this experiment was done in a ReWire 2 session with NOTION 4 being the ReWIre 2 host controller and Reason 7 being the ReWIre 2 slave, which leads me to think that the only way to make sense of this is to draw a detailed system diagram . . .

Lots of FUN!

wow i lost you somewhere there:)
sounds like you are having lots of fun!!
Actually i am working with Ableton as rewire master, and this prevents recording realtime into notion unfortunately.
Other than that it's working smoothly.
Don't think it's to do with midi cables...
But combining audio production and notation/midi is very exciting I agree. especially with orchestral styles, using an ewqlso library.
Ben

ben amato wrote:wow i lost you somewhere there:)
sounds like you are having lots of fun!!
Actually i am working with Ableton as rewire master, and this prevents recording realtime into notion unfortunately.
Other than that it's working smoothly.
Don't think it's to do with midi cables...
But combining audio production and notation/midi is very exciting I agree. especially with orchestral styles, using an ewqlso library.
Ben

I am having FUN, and I knew that you were running Ableton Live as the ReWIre 2 host controller . . .

I was not certain what you were trying to do, but after doing some experiments I think I understand what you want to do, and I think you can do it . . .

OVERVIEW

It works when the MIDI being recorded in NOTION 4 is sent via a virtual MIDI cable (IAC Driver), and based on this I think that it will work when the MIDI being recorded is sent from an external MIDI keyboard like the KORG Triton Music Workstation (88-Keys) via standard MIDI cables connected to an external digital audio and MIDI interface like the MOTU 828mk3 Hybrid (a personal favorite) . . .

I did two experiments, where the first experiment had Digital Performer 8 (MOTU) as the ReWire 2 host controller and both NOTION 4 and Reason 7 as ReWire 2 slaves. I used the new Reason 7 External MIDI Instrument to send real-time MIDI notes and commands to a NOTION 4 staff that was assigned to Twin 2 (FabFilter Software Instruments), which is a very nice VSTi virtual instrument that also supports other virtual instrument technologies like Audio Units (AU) . . .

This worked nicely, and the second experiment was the same, except that I used Ableton Live 9 as the ReWire 2 host controller, and it also worked nicely . . .

And I made YouTube videos to show the experiments . . .

[NOTE: In this YouTube video, when you hear piano at the start for a measure or two, it is because that piano part was already recorded, so is played as soundbite, which you can verify toward the end of the YouTube video by observing the horizontal red bar in the Digital Performer 8 "Tracks" window, which I emphasize by moving the red circle mouse pointer on top of it. The set of MIDI notes sent from Reason 7 are shorter than the top three staves in the NOTION 4 project, so it is normal that the Reason 7 notes stop a few measures early. And there is no voice-over in either of the YouTube videos . . . ]

NOTION 4 recording MIDI ~ DP8 is ReWIre 2 host controller -- YouTube video

[NOTE: In this YouTube video, I changed the preset for the Twin 2 (FabFilter Software Instruments) synthesizer to a muted Stratocaster, and I configured the staff in NOTION 4 setup to play the notes one octave lower than notated . . . ]

NOTION 4 recording MIDI ~ Live 9 as ReWire 2 host controller -- YouTube video

THOUGHTS

I was working on a longer and more detailed post, but after ScreenFlow (Telestream, Inc.) rendered the second video, the Mac Pro crashed, so I had to do a warm boot, which is what happens occasionally when one is experimenting with ReWire and trying different things, some of which do not work . . .

So, you get the short version, but I think it is important to observe that there are levels of software designing and engineering skill, and it works the same way as designing and building airplanes and spaceships, where for example a Boeing 747 can land in Antarctica during a blizzard, even though it is not something most folks would expect ever to happen . . .

The key bit of information is that it might be necessary, and because it might be necessary, the airplane is designed and built to be able to do it, so long as the pilot can find a reasonably flat and long section of ice or whatever . . .

In the same sense, this is what happens when highly skilled software designers and engineers design, code, build, and test computer programs, and in this instance I think it is accurate to state that this is the case with the fine folks at Ableton, MOTU, Notion Music, and Propellerhead Software, because even though doing this particular bit of digital musical work is way out there in terms of perhaps only two people on the planet actually being interested in doing it--you and me, specifically--it is part of the ReWIre 2 specification, and the applications support it, which is fabulous . . .

Fabulous!

I need to do a few more experiments--primarily the experiment where the MIDI instrument is the KORG Triton connected via standard MIDI cables to the MOTU 828mk3 Hybrid external digital audio and MIDI interface--but it works with a Mac OS X virtual MIDI cable (IAC Driver), and the general idea with a Mac OS X virtual MIDI cable is that it looks to NOTION 4 as if it were a real external MIDI instrument like the KORG Triton . . .

I have a few more days remaining on the 30-day free trial of Ableton Live 9 (64-bit), and it is not difficult to do the same experiment but with the KORG Triton replacing the Reason 7 External MIDI Instrument (EMI), and actually it should be easier, since I only need to run Ableton Live 9 and NOTION 4 . . .

Lots of FUN!

P. S. I read some of the information about velocity overdub, which I have never used, and I think it is different from recording MIDI, since it is step-based. So, for velocity overdub I think it makes the most sense to do this in NOTION 4 when it is running by itself, although I suppose that you might be able to do velocity overdub if NOTION 4 is the ReWire 2 host controller but Ableton Live 9 is the ReWire slave application. I did a quick test, and when NOTION 4 is the ReWIre 2 host controller and Ableton Live 9 is the ReWIre 2 slave, Ableton Live 9 moves forward in velocity overdub mode at the same pace as NOTION 4, so this might be a way to do velocity overdub, although I did not try this with the KORG Triton. I think the applicable rule on this is that if the specific function is provided on a standard transport, then it will work, but in this instance velocity overdub is not a standard transport function, where standard transport functions are play, stop, rewind, record, and so forth but probably not velocity overdub . . .