Logic - Rewire - Notion (issue)

[Surfwhammy]

Heck, I'm just hoping to be able to get what's in my head into notion and logic/studio one!

If you work on it, you can do it!

Regarding the idea of having a "sassy trumpet" in a waltz, it might work, but I suppose it depends on how it sounds . . .

Intuitively, I think a waltz should be more smooth and graceful than "sassy" . . .

Going by the way the trumpet sounds in the "Cuba" collection demo songs, I think it is played a bit harder than the "Band" trumpets that come with Kontakt 5 , where the "Band" trumpets sound like a horn section in Rhythm and Blues, which also are played hard, but probably not so hard to be classified as "sassy" . . .

Over the years, I have played in musical groups that had horn sections, where the focus was on Rhythm and Blues, and I call it playing "hard", because this was the only practical way for the horn section to be heard, so it is more of a loudness type of thing, except it creates a particular texture, and I like the texture, which I think has more odd overtones than even overtones or harmonics, and from this perspective I think that "sassy" is even more extreme but with slurs, slides, and rapid trills at the starts of notes and occasionally at the ends of notes, which is different from the various types of staccato, although notes also end abruptly at times, which is fine with me . . .

Lots of FUN!

[Surfwhammy]

You know, if it's possible to replicate the sound of the Chicago horn section using the band sounds, that would be really cool!

As a bit of follow-up, I am very happy with the "sassy" trumpet in the Cuba Discovery Series for Kontakt 5 (Native Instruments) and the tenor saxophone and trombone in the Band Collection (Kontakt 5 Factory Library); and I think that once I understand how all the controls for the Kontakt 5 user interface work, I will be able to create a very realistic horn section!

I added a horn section to the verses of "The Cock-A-Doodle-Oodle Dance", featuring the "sassy" trumpet from the Cuba Discovery Series for Kontakt 5 and a tenor saxophone and trombone from the Kontakt 5 Band Collection (which is part of the Kontakt 5 Factory Library that comes with Kontakt 5, as you know), and I moved the producing, mixing, and mastering to Digital Performer 8.05 (MOTU), because even though there are only 15 instruments at present, they are sufficiently "heavy" that only 11 of them fit into a single 64-bit NOTION 4 score, hence adding the horn section required a cloned NOTION 4 score and doing the ReWire 2 strategy, which is fine with me, where the key to the strategy is to keep the NOTION 4 scores synchronized, which in a practical way maps to being able to add or delete measures and then to be able to re-record all the soundbites via ReWire 2 for the virtual instruments, which is not difficult to do once you develop a system and can keep track of a lot of stuff . . .

[NOTE: At present, there are two NOTION 4 scores, where one has the basic rhythm section and the other one has the horn section. I added two measures to the start of each verse as part of changing the chord pattern for the verses, and this required updating both of the NOTION 4 scores, which I did in the same ReWire 2 session, but only one NOTION 4 score can be open when the actual soundbites are recorded, which is easy to do, and once the basic rhythm section structure is updated, the soundbites are heard and then the focus shifts to the second NOTION 4 score where one works on composing the horn section parts, all in the same ReWire 2 session, which makes sense when you do it a few times and understand the workflow rules and so forth. Doing songs this way involves composing in layers, where each "layer" maps to a specific instrument, so it is important to be able to develop a song in layers, which literally is the only way one person can create a pretend musical group. In the following music notation excerpt, "K5 Sassy Trumpet" is from the Cuba Discovery Series, as is the Latin percussion Salsa section in "K5 Cuba", where the whole notes are the actual Salsa rhythm section and the eighth notes or "quavers" are the timbales and bongos. The "MF3 Latin" staff is for the guiro, and the strategy for the horn section notes was to compose the notes for the "sassy" trumpet and then to use those notes as the foundation for the tenor sax and trombone but transposed by intervals that make sense for orchestrating a horn section, so instead of needing to compose three parts ("sassy" trumpet, tenor saxophone, and trombone), you only need to compose one part and to know which intervals to use for transposing the part to create harmony notes for the tenor saxophone and trombone, which can be adjusted "by ear" if necessary, which makes sense after you do it a few times and understand the logic, music theory, or whatever. If you can determine when something sounds "good", which I think you can, then composing an elaborate song is no different from assembling a puzzle where the puzzle pieces are notes done in music notation. It is like painting a picture by numbers, except that you create the numbers and select the paint colors and brushes . . . ]



"The Cock-A-Doodle-Oodle Dance" (The Surf Whammys) ~ Sassy Salsa Version ~ YouTube music video

THOUGHTS

Since I do nearly everything "by ear", the strategy I used for the horn section was to do two or three notes at a time, where the key is to start with a few notes and then to make them sound "good", at which point I move to finding another few notes that sound "good", where the primary advantage of composing this way is that it is not necessary to have any immediately conscious idea what one actually is doing, since all the work is done by the unconscious mind, which at least here in the sound isolation studio is considerably smarter than the conscious mind, really . . .

Really!

Once the new horn section was added, I noticed that the chord pattern for the verses was in the wrong key, so I changed the chord pattern for the verses, which works nicely but is a bit confusing, because now I have no idea regarding the actual key signature and mode for the song, but in the "by ear" universe, this is never a problem, since all that matters is that the music sounds "good" . . .

I think the horns sound realistic, but there are a few tonal controls in the Kontakt 5 user interface that I need to explore, because they change the way each of the Band Collection horns sounds, where winning first place in the "Outstanding Name for a User Interface Control Contest", the specifically intriguing control is called "Sound, and it makes it possible to "dial-in" a virtual festival of playing styles, which is intriguing . . .

[NOTE: My hypothesis on the origin of this particular horn section sound is that it comes from small horn sections in nightclub settings where there are electric guitars, electric bass, and keyboards in the musical group, hence the only way the horn section can be heard over all the amplified electric instruments is for the horn players to play very hard and loud. Also, due to economics there are not a lot of horn players, so the horn players need to devise ways to sound "bigger", which they do . . . ]



I did a bit more research on Latin horn sections, and for live performances Ricky Martin uses a three-piece horn section (trumpet, tenor sax, and trombone), which works nicely and keeps everything simple but deep and rich; but the horn section needs to be "pumped", which in turn requires a very specific overall playing style for the sampled sounds, which essentially maps to playing very hard and a bit "sloppy", since the goal is to extract as much texture from the horns as possible, although "sassy" might be a better descriptor than "sloppy" . . .

"Livin' La Vida Loca" (Ricky Martin) ~ Clausura Guadalajara 2011 ~ YouTube concert video

[NOTE: Chicago also has a three-piece horn section, and it works very nicely, where this is my favorite Chicago song, for sure! ]

"25 or 6 to 4" (Chicago) ~ Live at Tanglewood 1970 ~ YouTube concert video

Lots of FUN!

[hselburn]

Had to listen to 25 or 6 to 4. I love early Chicago. Maybe, maybe up to Chicago 10. Then they just became too commercial and I loved Terry Kath. It was not the same after he passed. I should be getting the triple play shortly. I'm hoping that maybe an upgrade to the Mac mini comes out before I buy it although realistically if Apple hasn't shipped one by the end of February, I'll have to get one and know that a massive if it is massive upgrade is forthcoming. (If they do it. I don't know if they will or not.) I'm going to run it through an external hd. That seems to be the best bet based on info from the apple forums.

[Surfwhammy]

I'm going to run it through an external hd. That seems to be the best bet based on info from the apple forums.

Can you provide more information on this, specifically what "it" is in the first sentence (" . . . run it through an external hd")?

The reason I ask is that this does not make any sense to me, so perhaps you are describing something else?

An "external hd" is an "external hard drive" like a LaCie d2 Quadra USB 3.0, which is fine, but one does not run something "through it" . . .

If you are referring to the Fishman TriplePlay, it has a wireless receiver with a USB connector, and it will connect to one of the USB ports at the back of the Mac mini, which has four USB ports (see the photo, below) . . .





If "it" is referring to an external hard drive, then my best guess is that there is a concern regarding the throughput of the 5,400 RPM internal hard drive for the Mac mini, but the reality is that you will need to increase the system memory at least to 8GB, with 16GB being preferred, which for all practical purposes moves the sound samples and other data into system memory and, in turn, makes the 5,400 RPM internal hard drive less of a concern, if any concern, at all . . .

Mac OS X 10.9.1 (Mavericks) will use 16GB of system memory, and it actually uses more than that amount if it is available . . .

If the Mac mini has only 4GB of system memory, you will not be happy with the overall response and so forth . . .

8GB of system memory is in the "OK" range, but 16GB is a good minimum amount of system memory . . .

Kontakt 5 is in what I consider to be the "medium" range of resource usage, which certainly benefits from having more system memory . . .

In contrast, MachFive 3 (MOTU) is in the "heavy" range of resource usage, and while MachFive 3 is very nice, it also requires significant resources, which quickly becomes a limiting factor . . .

Before you make a purchasing decision for your new Mac, I think it makes sense to consider what you will need, because for example, by the time you upgrade a Mac mini to 16GB of system memory from Apple and add an external hard drive, it might cost less to get a new 21.5" iMac (specifically, the lowest price basic model iMac), and the iMac will be faster than the Apple-upgraded lowest price Mac mini, which currently is $978 (US) with 16GB of memory and an external SuperDrive, and there is sales tax, but this does not include an external hard drive, since the external SuperDrive is for CD/DVD . . .

It takes a while to make sense of music notation, so it might make better sense to focus on making sense of music notation for a few more months while you save for a faster Mac . . .

The Fishman TriplePlay certainly can make inputting notes easier, but you need to understand music notation, regardless . . .

If the Fishman TriplePlay and Kontakt 5 work with your current computer, then you can work on making sense of these two products for several months, including working on making sense of music notation, and you will be very productive during this time, during which you can be saving for a new Mac and looking for discount purchase opportunities . . .

Lots of FUN . . .

[hselburn]

Logic Pro x, notion 4, kontact 5

[hselburn]

And yes, the triple play on a Mac mini. Through may not have been the right word but I'm going to be running everything from an external hd, not the internal drive as the 2012/13 model only has a 5400 rpm drive the SSD is too small so an external FireWire 800 seems right.

[Surfwhammy]

Logic Pro x, notion 4, kontact 5

Logic Pro X, NOTION 4, and Kontakt 5 will fit on the Mac mini 500GB internal hard drive (5,400 RPM) with no problems . . .

And yes, the triple play on a Mac mini. Through may not have been the right word but I'm going to be running everything from an external hd, not the internal drive as the 2012/13 model only has a 5400 rpm drive the SSD is too small so an external FireWire 800 seems right.

The only problem is that the Mac mini comes with 4GB of system memory, which is not enough system memory to run everything in 64-bit mode, which is very important . . .

At minimum, you will need 8GB of system memory, but 16GB is best for the Mac mini . . .

When there is sufficient system memory, the speed of the internal hard drive is not a significant factor for audio work, and you cannot judge the performance of a hard drive solely by the spin rate . . .

With sufficient system memory, I think the primary difference in a 5,400 RPM drive and a 7,200 RPM drive will be initial loading time, but once everything is loaded, from that point forward everything is in system memory, and then the difference affects exporting audio, but you can do audio exports while you take a coffee break or do something else for a minute or two . . .

As an example, one of the NOTION 4 scores for "The Cock-A-Doodle-Oodle Dance" takes approximately two minutes to load, primarily because the MachFive 3 (MOTU) VSTi virtual instruments are highly sampled, and it takes a while to load all the samples into system memory, and this is with a new 7,200 RPM internal Seagate hard drive, but once NOTION 4 and its various VSTi virtual instruments are loaded into system memory, the internal hard drive activity ends and stays at zero reads and writes until I do something that triggers hard drive activity . . .

With a 5,200 RPM internal hard drive, the initial loading of the NOTION 4 score might take four or five minutes, but it does not matter, since I can do something else during that time, like make a new pot of coffee . . .

From a practical perspective, it matters when one is rendering a large video file, but for audio it is not such a concern, although for audio it depends on the way virtual instruments work, but with Logic Pro X, NOTION 4, and Kontakt 5, it is not going to be a significant concern, because they load all their stuff into system memory when there is sufficient system memory, and they make an effort to avoid a lot of hard drive interactions . . .

[NOTE: There are some virtual instruments that stream audio in real-time from servers and do a lot of hard drive activity, but you are not using them, so it is not a concern . . . ]

And USB 3.0 (5 Gbps) will be significantly faster than FireWire 800 (800 Mbps), where USB 3.0 is approximately five to six times faster than FireWire 800 . . .

Let me know if you need help with this . . .

Lots of FUN!

[hselburn]

I planned on upgrading to 16GB, the only question was Apple Memory, or 3rd Party...(other world computing)

[Surfwhammy]

I planned on upgrading to 16GB, the only question was Apple Memory, or 3rd Party...(other world computing)

I did a bit of price checking, and the most economical strategy for upgrading system memory depends upon where you get the Mac mini or iMac . . .

If you get a Mac mini directly from Apple, then it costs less to have Apple do the memory upgrade, but you have to pay sales tax on the entire unit . . .

It also depends on which Mac mini model and any other options, which is the reason that I suggested adding a 21.5" iMac to the equation, because the high-end Mac mini with the quad-core i7 processor and 16GB of system memory costs more than the basic 21.5" iMac, which you can upgrade with 16GB of memory from Other World Computing or Amazon.com, which is another option for memory if you know which specific type of system memory to get, where the advantage of Other World Computing is that they categorize system memory by the specific Mac models . . .

For example, this is the high-end Mac mini with a Fusion drive, keyboard, mouse, and so forth, and it has a MSRP at the Apple Store of $1,596 (US) . . .

[NOTE: You could get the Apple Mouse, which is wired, but the scroll pea stops working after a while. I have not tried an Apple Magic Mouse, but it has no moving parts, hence probably will work better . . . ]

2.6GHz Quad-Core Intel Core i7
16GB 1600MHz DDR3 SDRAM - 2x8GB
1TB Fusion Drive
Apple USB SuperDrive
Apple Keyboard with Numeric Keypad
Apple Magic Mouse
User's Guide (English)
Accessory Kit

This is the basic 21.5" iMac with upgrades, and it costs $1,578 at the Apple Store . . .

2.7GHz Quad-core Intel Core i5, Turbo Boost up to 3.2GHz
16GB 1600MHz DDR3 SDRAM - 2X8GB
1TB Serial ATA Drive @ 5400 rpm
Intel Iris Pro Graphics
Apple USB SuperDrive
Apple Magic Mouse
Apple Keyboard with Numeric Keypad (English) & User's Guide
Accessory Kit

MacMall has attractive pricing, and they discount the immediately previous versions, which is a good strategy for saving money . . .

Mac mini (MacMall)

iMac (MacMall)

THOUGHTS

I understand the logic for wanting to get the fastest and newest stuff, but Apple computers are well-designed, which maps (a) to the fastest and newest models being premium priced and (b) to older models being very peppy and more reasonably priced . . .

I do everything on the 2.8-GHz 8-core Mac Pro (Early 2008) with 20GB of memory and a Seagate 3TB 7200 RPM internal hard drive, and it is very nice, but it also is six-years old, which is fine with me . . .

As best as I can determine, a new Mac mini or iMac with a quad-core i5 processor will be at least as fast, and a new Mac mini or iMac with a quad-core i7 processor will be faster . . .

Hence, the practical focus on getting a new Mac mini or iMac but instead of the newest and most current model, getting the immediately previous model, new of course, since it will be discounted . . .

This is the strategy I used when I got the Mac Pro, and I got it two weeks before the next new model was released. It was new, of course, but since a newer model was due in two weeks, Amazon.com discounted it by approximately 8 percent to clear their inventory, and they did the higher discount for just a few hours, and I got it in the minimal configuration, which also saves money . . .

You can watch the disk activity shown by Activity Monitor (Mac OS X 10.9.1 [Mavericks]) in the following YouTube music video of a ReWire 2 session where Logic Pro X (Apple) is the ReWire 2 host controller and both NOTION 4 and Reason 7 (Propellerhead Software) are ReWire 2 slaves . . .

Additionally, the NOTION 4 score has two External MIDI staves that are controlling two of the Reason 7 synthesizers (shown with red color-coding on the Reason 7 Mixer), where one synthesizer is an ethereal pad and the other synthesizer is a string section . . .

The other staves in the NOTION 4 are for a MachFive 3 Fender Jazz Bass and Hammond B-3 Organ, and a FabFilter Software Instruments Twin 2 synthesizer . . .

The Reason 7 project has the tracks for "Faster" (Techno Squirrels), with a bit of fabulous Surfwhammy arranging and remixing, and the Logic Pro X project is the host controller and DAW application . . .

The key bit of information is that everything is loaded in system memory (a.k.a., "memory"), so there is nearly no disk activity, which is a good way to put into perspective some of the considerations regarding hard drive spin rates (5,200 RPM vs. 7,200 RPM) . . .

This is playback, so it has different requirements regarding disk activity, where for example rendering will have increased disk activity, because it writes the audio to a disk file, but rendering is done offline and for a typical duration song does not take a long time . . .

[NOTE: The small rectangular window at the lower-right shows the percent utilization of the 8 cores of the Mac Pro here in the sound isolation studio, which is another clue regarding performance considerations for digital audio computing on the Mac . . . ]

"Faster" (Techno Squirrels) ~ Surfwhammy Mix ~ Disk Activity ~ YouTube music video

Lots of FUN!

[hselburn]

Only thing is, there are major issues running logic on a fusion drive according to the apple support site. Logic promx doesn't like to do that. But I'm sure that will get fixed at some point.