dotted notes in tuplet?

[pcartwright]

Thanks for the kind words DaddyO.

If you get the wrong numbers then you can try the custom tuplet option (option 4) which allows you to set the ratio.

1. Highlight or click-select the adjacent notes you want to become a tuplet.
2. To open a Tupletdialog box, either:
–Right-click and select Tuplets> Custom Tuplet, or
–In the Entry Palette, hover over the third pane from the left and click in the pop-up
menu
» A Tupletdialog box opens. Make your adjustments and close.

[dshertz]

Hi, thorrild:

When I try the step with D, Notion changes the dotted eight note back to a eighth note. The change occurs when I try to apply the dotted eight to the staff.

Are you on Win or MAC?

BTW , thanks for helping.

[Surfwhammy]

When the bulk of the work is done via a mouse, this is my current hypothesis regarding way the internal algorithm works:

(1) The total "least common multiplier" unit is computed and is used to determine the antecedent value for the ratio, where the antecedent value is the one which is displayed in the music notation as a single number . . .

(2) The consequent then becomes some number based on as yet unidentified criteria . . .

This is what wikipedia says about the ratio aspect of a tuplet:

The n-tuplet notation shows the proportional increase or decrease of tempo needed for the bracketed notes, relative to the prevailing tempo. For example, a bracket labeled 5:4 (read five in the space of four) could group together durations (notes or rests) with a total of five sixteenth notes. A tempo 5/4 faster than usual then compresses these events into the space of four sixteenth notes.

[SOURCE: Tuplet (wikipedia) ]

EXAMPLES

Consider the following example, where there you begin with an eighth note, a single dotted eighth note, and a thirty-second note . . .



Expressed as fractions, this is {1/8, 3/16, 1/32}, 32 is the least common multiplier, hence is used as the least or lowest common denominator . . .

The set then becomes {4/32, 6/32, 1/32}, and adding the numerators produces the value "11", which is the number NOTION 4 running in 64-bit mode displays as the antecedent value for the tuplet ratio. . .

The ratio of the tuplet in this example by default will be 11:6, where the three notes are spread over 1 beat, as shown in the following images, where the second image has two additional tuplet examples and each of the measures are filled with a rest and some number of additional notes to determine the actual time allocated for the respective tuplets . . .





Curiously, although the ratios change, the time allocated to the following two tuplets appears to be the same . . .

[NOTE: In the first measure, the shortest duration note is a 1/16th, but in the second measure the shortest duration note is a 1/32nd, yet the number of rests and notes required to fill the measures are the same . . . ]



I did several experiments, and this is the data, where the notes are listed with their least common denominator representations and corresponding ratios . . .

Code: Select all

--------------------
1/8 + 3/16 + 1/16
2/16 + 3/16 + 1/16
RATIO: 6:4
--------------------
1/8 + 3/16 + 1/32
4/32 + 6/32 + 1/32
RATIO: 11:6
--------------------
1/8 + 3/16 + 1/64
8/64 + 12/64 + 1/64
RATIO: 21:11
--------------------
1/8 + 3/16 + 1/4
2/16 + 3/16 + 4/16
RATIO: 9/8
--------------------
1/4 + 3/8 + 1/8
2/8 + 3/8 + 1/8
RATIO: 6:4
--------------------

It is easy to determine the way the first number (a.k.a., "antecedent") in the ratio is computed, where it is the sum of the numerators of the notes when they are expressed with least common denominators, but the way the second number (a.k.a., "consequent") is computed is not clear to me at present . . .

THOUGHTS

(1) The algorithm does not appear to be dependent upon the tempo (beats per minute) . . .

(2) The NOTION 4 User Guide suggests that the algorithm is dependent upon the time signature, which I think is correct based on what happens when I change the time signature from 4/4 to 3/4, as shown as follows, where the last two notes in each measure exceed the time allocated for each measure, hence are color-coded red, although the ratios stayed the same . . .



(3) I found some information regarding the concepts of "irrational" and "rational" time spans, where the irrational time spans occur when everything is not evenly divisible, with an example being playing three quarter notes in the time allocated normally for two quarter notes, such that each note has a duration of 2/3 of a beat in 4/4 time, and the "irrational vs. rational" aspect might explain the logic for the algorithm producing a ratio of 6:4, which makes no sense to me, and in another scenario producing a ratio like 9:8, which makes a bit of sense. And for reference the ratios 21:11 and 11:6 make no sense, either . . .

SUMMARY

This works on the Mac in NOTION 4 when you do most of the user interface work via the mouse, and I think the key is to specify the ratio when the notes in a tuplet have odd values, which ensures that NOTION 4 plays the notes as you desire, where it is useful to understand that getting it to play correctly might require a bit of experimenting . . .

Lots of FUN!

[thorrild]

Hi, thorrild:

When I try the step with D, Notion changes the dotted eight note back to a eighth note. The change occurs when I try to apply the dotted eight to the staff.

Are you on Win or MAC?

BTW , thanks for helping.

Hi dshertz,

I'm on a Mac (I believe pcartwright is on a PC, but I'm not sure), and I have now had a chance to test my own instructions (I was away from my computer when I wrote them). You are right, the dot doesn't seem to be recognized as part of the tuplet entry process. However, when you're all done with the tuplet (except for the dot), simply type ED [cursor changes to a dotted eighth note], click on the notehead that should have been dotted, and your tuplet is now complete. This seems to be a bug, although it is easy to remedy it. I will report it to Notion as such.

Best wishes,
Thorrild

[Admin]

Thank you for the information guys. I have run into the problem myself. It has been reported and a ticket has been made.

The easiest way to workaround this issue, is to start with all eighths. Make the tuplet. Then select the note. Using the left/right arrow keys, you can move from note to note. When the note that you want to effect is highlighted, press " = e d " to change to a dotted eighth, then navigate right to the next note and press " = s " to get a sixteenth. Sorry for the trouble.

Here is an example of the results:

Tuplet Rhythms.png (8.57 KiB) Viewed 9638 times

[dshertz]

Hi, Guys:

After talking with Brian at Notion (Thanks for your help) the procedure seems to be:
1. Draw the dotted eight, sixteenth and eighth
2. Highlight the three notes
3. Right click the group and select Tuplet-> custom
4. Change the ratio to 3:2.

This works for me in 4/4 and avoids an inplace edit of the noteheads.

Thanks to all who addressed this issue.

[pcartwright]

Warning - Smart ass alert. My prior response was taken word for word from the manual (literally copied and pasted). I'm not trying to be a jerk, but sometimes reading the manual is the best way to go.

After talking with Brian at Notion (Thanks for your help) the procedure seems to be:
1. Draw the dotted eight, sixteenth and eighth
2. Highlight the three notes
3. Right click the group and select Tuplet-> custom
4. Change the ratio to 3:2.

Hmmm... does that response sound familiar to anyone else?

If you get the wrong numbers then you can try the custom tuplet option (option 4) which allows you to set the ratio.

1. Highlight or click-select the adjacent notes you want to become a tuplet.
2. To open a Tupletdialog box, either:
–Right-click and select Tuplets> Custom Tuplet, or
–In the Entry Palette, hover over the third pane from the left and click in the pop-up
menu
» A Tupletdialog box opens. Make your adjustments and close.

Thanks to all who addressed this issue.

You're welcome.

[dshertz]

@pcartwright: Smart ass indeed. Your initial post of showing the solution and then suggesting that we read part of the manual is more narcissism than help.

If you want to help, then spell out your procedure step by step, and leave nothing to chance interpretation. Your answer was never really spelled out completely, across any number of posts, and that left room for faulty interpretation (I'll take credit for that).

I'm sure you mean well, but as a helper and forum fixture, perhaps you are interested also in doing well.

And yes, thanks.

[pcartwright]

Your initial post of showing the solution and then suggesting that we read part of the manual is more narcissism than help.

I would say checking the user manual for information would be reasonable. I don't see how suggesting something reasonable would equate to narcissism. What's more, why would you make an assumption of my character based on an internet forum?

If you want to help, then spell out your procedure step by step, and leave nothing to chance interpretation. Your answer was never really spelled out completely, across any number of posts, and that left room for faulty interpretation (I'll take credit for that).

I don't know how to state the solution more clearly than what was in the manual, so what else would I write? It seems like the only difference between what Brian said and what the manual said was to change the ratio in the tuplet dialog box. Was this the elusive step?

Did you even notice the image where a dotted tuplet was successfully created before you posted "there seems to be no action on the issue"? Did you even try the instructions I posted yesterday?

Just for the record, the OP user PMed after my initial response and I referred to the manual (again, how else would I explain it?). I only jumped back in because you made the incorrect presumption that a dotted tuplet could not be written. I was hoping that reztes would chime and explain how the problem was addressed.

perhaps you are interrested also in doing well.

?

[reztes]

Well, it's ok.

The fact is that you can't put the dotted tuplets in the common way -with keyboard-, which is also the faster way. I think this is the big problem, more than the "6" or the "3". I hope you Notion guys will solve this little bug -because a functionallity is missing-.

And thanks to pcartwright because I could go on copy the Sigfried's Act 3 Vorspiel.

EDIT:

I try to put the dotted 8th note into a tuplet using the Step Midi Record input, but it doesn't seem to work good. I think it is a bug.
1 - I get into the Step Midi Record input Mode.
2 - I use the ALT + 3 command.
3 - I use E for the 8th note and the 'D' for the dot.
4 - When I play the note the dot is gone. It doens't work well

However, I'm writting them in another way.

1 - I get into Step MIDI Record input Mode.
2 - I use the Alt + 3 command and I put all the notes with an 8th value.
3 - After put them all, I switch to simple entry mode and I put the dots and the 16th.