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Notion Doesn't Play Two notes tremolos

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Notion Doesn't Play Two notes tremolos

Postby reztes » Sun Dec 16, 2012 8:51 am

Hello,
Notion doesn't play two notes tremolos (with ///). It plays only the lower note.
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Re: Notion Doesn't Play Two notes tremolos

Postby Surfwhammy » Mon Dec 17, 2012 12:38 am

reztes wrote:Hello,
Notion doesn't play two notes tremolos (with ///). It plays only the lower note.


If you can be a bit more specific regarding what you want to do; which instruments you want to use; and so forth, then someone who knows how to do it can provide a bit of help . . .

As an example, this is the NOTION 4 bundled Electric Guitar doing a bit of Lap Steel Guitar with tremolo on everything provided by Timeless 2 (FabFilter Software Instruments), which is the smart way to do this type of tremolo when one is not certain whether the sampled sounds are done with chromatic sampling or a combination of partial chromatic sampling and stretching, where the latter involves emulating non-sampled notes via mathematical algorithms and when tremolo is used invariably results in subtle variations in tremolo rate . . .

Image

[NOTE: This type of tremolo is based generally on the tremolo circuit of a Fender amplifier and is popular in Instrumental Surf Music, which is entirely different from doing tremolo on a violin or whatever. And it specifically is done by varying the volume at a typically steady fixed rate, which is distinctly different from vibrato, which varies pitch rather than volume . . . ]

NOTION 4 Electric Guitar with Timeless 2 Tremolo -- WAV (1.8MB, 1411-kbps, approximately 10 seconds)

If NOTION 4 only does the type of tremolo you need on the lower of two notes, then split the notes and put them on two staves, or try it with multivoice and see if that does what you need to do, which is fabulous . . .

Fabulous! :D
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Re: Notion Doesn't Play Two notes tremolos

Postby reztes » Mon Dec 17, 2012 9:37 am

Notion doesn't play this kind of two notes tremolo. It only sounds the lower note. The articulation is called (in Notion words) "fingered tremolo".
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Re: Notion Doesn't Play Two notes tremolos

Postby Surfwhammy » Mon Dec 17, 2012 9:12 pm

reztes wrote:Notion doesn't play this kind of two notes tremolo. It only sounds the lower note. The articulation is called (in Notion words) "fingered tremolo".


Glittering generalities are easy to create, but they are meaningless unless you take the time to do the required research and verification . . .


The fact of the matter is that NOTION 4 does fingered tremolos (a.k.a., "shakes"), but (a) there are rules for when it does them and (b) it only does this with certain instruments. This could be made a bit more clear in the NOTION 4 User Manual, but it should be clear enough by the primary context of the NOTION 4 User Manual, which is that most people use NOTION 4 bundled instruments, specifically because NOTION bundled instruments do additional things that are not so easy to do when one is using third-party VSTi virtual instruments, although there are a few of the more popular third-party VSTi virtual instruments which have enhanced mappings that make them similar in capabilities to the NOTION 4 bundled instruments . . .

[NOTE: In this context, while the reality here in the sound isolation studio is that I do nearly everything with VSTi virtual instruments, it is important to understand that the high-level perspective of the NOTION 4 User Manual is focused primarily on explaining how to use NOTION 4 with NOTION 4 bundled instruments. There are sections of the NOTION 4 User Manual that are focused specifically on External MIDI and third-party VSTi virtual instruments, and the key is to get a sense of when the NOTION 4 User Manual is describing how to use NOTION 4 specifically with NOTION 4 bundled instruments (as well as the various NOTION 4 add-on instrument libraries) as contrasted to when the NOTION 4 User Manual is providing general advice on techniques that might be appropriate when you doing External MIDI or when you are using third-party VSTi virtual instruments, and this can be a bit confusing at first, but it makes sense after a while, and the best overall strategy is to do some experiments . . . ]

This particular technique does not work for every instrument, where for example it does not work for the Jazz Guitar in MachFive 3 (MOTU), and it does not work for the NOTION 4 bundled Electric Guitar, although singletons and doubletons are supported for these two instruments, as well as the Kontakt 5 (Native Instruments) Solo Celo, where "singleton" maps to one line and "doubleton" maps to two lines, but as noted the tripleton (i.e., three-line) flavor does not work . . .

Yet, if you use the technique on the NOTION 4 bundled Solo Viola, then it works in all three flavors, where the singleton and doubleton flavors play the starting note a number of times and then play the ending note only one time, but the tripleton flavor does what I call a "trill", as heard in the follow example done with the NOTION 4 bundled Solo Viola:

[NOTE: This also works with the NOTION 4 bundled Flute, and it appears that part of the rules includes being specific to certain types of instruments, which might include being dependent on the existence of custom rules for third-party VSTi virtual instruments . . . ]

Image

NOTION 4 Bundled Solo Viola: Three Flavors of Fingered Tremolo -- WAV (4.1MB, 1411-kbps, approximately 22 seconds)

But there are some rules for the tripleton flavor, and one of the rules is that the interval between the starring note and the ending note is (a) no greater than two half-steps (for example, B3 to A3 or A3 to B3) and (b) no less than one half-step (for example, B3 to A3# or A3# to B3), because if the starting and ending notes are the same, then nothing happens, and if the interval between the starting and ending notes is greater than two half-steps, then nothing happens most of the time, although there are a few exceptions where the ending note being three half-steps downward from the starting note works but not the reverse . . .

[NOTE: The allowed intervals according to the NOTION 4 User Manual are a bit different than I was able to determine by doing a few simple experiments, but so what. Then intervals I stated actually work, which is what is important for the two instruments (NOTION 4 bundled Flute and Viola) . . . ]

From the standpoint of playback, you can create a [sic] major second, minor second, major third, or perfect fourth fingered tremolos.


[SOURCE: NOTION 4 User Manual, page 10.23 ]

[NOTE: Grammatically, using "a" before "major second" establishes singularity and is incorrect voice to use with the plural word "tremolos". So either (a) remove the "a" or (b) change "tremolos" to "tremolo". I prefer to remove the "a", since "a" has the problem of sounding like a key . . . ]

THOUGHTS

There are a lot of aspects of NOTION which are like this, where a particular technique does not work for every possible instrument (NOTION 4 bundled instrument, NOTION 4 add-on instrument, or third-party VSTI virtual instrument), but there usually are logical reasons for some techniques being specific to certain instruments, where for example while blowing in a certain way when playing flute maps to a specific musical technique with corresponding notes, blowing on a well-rosined violin bow just maps to a sneeze, which is fabulous . . .

Fabulous! :D

P. S. An excellent way to get a better understanding of the way trills, Baroque and Classical ornamentation (basically, pre-Mozart and post-Mozart), elaboration, and all that stuff works is to discover how to do the drumkit and rhythm guitar parts for a song like "Thank You, Pain" (The Agonist), which is a bit like No Doubt jamming with Arch Enemy, Korn, and Led Zeppelin with a surreal Dubstep orchestral finish really . . .

[NOTE: When you think about it for a while, Mozart moving Baroque ornamentation to a higher level is pretty much the same thing conceptually as Heavy Metal and Melodic Death Metal lead guitar players devising strategies for doing increasingly elaborate fingerboard tapping to play extraordinarily rapid phrases which basically are arpeggios and in the grand scheme of everything achieve pretty much the same goal as sticking Kleenex® tissues or Hickory Farms® summer sausages in their Spandex® tights did during the 1980s when they were having a bit of FUN as Arena Rock lead guitar players . . . :lol: ]

"Thank You Pain" (The Agonist) -- YouTube music video

Really! :P

P. P. S. For the NOTION 4 bundled Marimba, try using Tremolando rather than Fingered Tremolo or Shakes for the three-bar stuff, since the Tremolando stuff works for Marimba . . .
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Re: Notion Doesn't Play Two notes tremolos

Postby reztes » Tue Dec 18, 2012 11:01 am

Where can I find that tremolando articulation?

I'm also trying with other sounds (The Alchemy ones) and, again, Notion doesn't perform the fingered tremolo... Do this happen with all the vst sounds?
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Re: Notion Doesn't Play Two notes tremolos

Postby Surfwhammy » Tue Dec 18, 2012 2:03 pm

reztes wrote:Where can I find that tremolando articulation?

I'm also trying with other sounds (The Alchemy ones) and, again, Notion doesn't perform the fingered tremolo... Do this happen with all the vst sounds?


The tremolando articulation is specified by 1 to 3 tiny diagonal lines on the vertical staff of a note or simply above the note if it is a whole note . . .

It is found on the Tool Palette in the trills section, where it is at the top-right . . .

Image

Image

This probably happens with all the VSTi virtual instruments which do not have specific NOTION 4 mappings, where the difference is that the ones which have a NOTION 4 mapping will expand when selected during score setup to show sections for different instruments. But the VSTi virtual linstruments that do not have NOTION 4 mappings just show the standalone user interface for the VSTi virtual instrument when it is selected as the instrument during score setup . . .

Lots of FUN!
:ugeek:
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Re: Notion Doesn't Play Two notes tremolos

Postby reztes » Tue Dec 18, 2012 2:52 pm

But it is not the articulation that I want... "Fingered tremolo" is more like a trill, but it plays the two notes specified. If you have a "fingered tremolo" between c3 and e3 it sounds like a trill between these notes. I supose I can use 32th notes, but it is a hard and long way for writing such a simple thing...
I tried with another instruments and it only plays the second intervals. Can it be an unknown issue?
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Re: Notion Doesn't Play Two notes tremolos

Postby alexg » Tue Dec 18, 2012 7:03 pm

You need to purchase the string expansion libraries to get minor 3rd, major 3rd and perfect 4th tremolos. I'm not sure about other sections.
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Re: Notion Doesn't Play Two notes tremolos

Postby Surfwhammy » Wed Dec 19, 2012 2:44 am

reztes wrote:But it is not the articulation that I want... "Fingered tremolo" is more like a trill, but it plays the two notes specified. If you have a "fingered tremolo" between c3 and e3 it sounds like a trill between these notes. I supose I can use 32th notes, but it is a hard and long way for writing such a simple thing...
I tried with another instruments and it only plays the second intervals. Can it be an unknown issue?


Since you used Marimba as an example, I think that you probably want the articulation which makes the most sense when the intervals are greater rather than smaller, as is the case when someone is playing Marimba, Zylophone, or Vibraphone with a pair of mallets in each hand, and if this is what you need, then I think that doing it the hard way is the only guaranteed way to do it, where the 'hard way" refers to specifying each note . . .

Some of the more advanced VSTi virtual instruments have engines that support a bit of scripting, so I do not exclude the possibility of doing what you want to do via scripting, but both of these two strategies will require some work, and the advantage of doing it the "hard way" is that once you have the rhythm pattern for the notes, then it mostly is a "copy and paste" type of activity . . .

The key bit of information is that the NOTION bundled instruments and the NOTION add-on instrument libraries have extra capabilities which are included specifically for use with NOTION, and while these types of capabilities certainly can be present in third-party VSTi virtual instruments and their associated sampled sounds libraries, using the third-party VSTi virtual instrument "extra capabilities" requires additional work, some of which can be very complex . . .

As an example, you might be interested in MachFive 3 (MOTU), which has its own scripting language based on the Lua programming language and provides the functionality for designing and programming your own special effects, where arpeggios are an example, with the idea being that you supply a small set of notes and then an "arpeggiator" takes those notes and creates elaborate arpeggios . . .

Depending on what you need to do with Marimbas, you might be able to design and program a special effect that takes as input a sequence of single mallet notes but then transforms them into double-mallet harmonies and counterpoint, and i think that something like this is well within the capabilities of MachFive 3, where another possibility is based on the "Chorder" effect, which creates up to 6-note chords based on being input one note . . .

MachFive 3 (MOTU)

Lua Programming Language

[NOTE: This is the MachFIve 3 VSTi engine enhancing single notes played on a Marimba, where the enhancing is done by synthesizing and repeating notes in a pattern. The Marimba notes a sampled, and MachFive 3 has them, hence is able to use them in its Arpeggiator to create a more elaborate mallet playing pattern. And the NOTION 4 notes are shown in the screen capture of the MF3 Marimba staff. And since the Arpeggiator is programmable, you can specify intervals, repeats, and so forth, as well as time between notes and other stuff . . . ]

Image

MachFive 3 Marimba with Arpeggiator in NOTION 4 -- WAV (2.3MB, 1411-kbps, approximately 13 seconds)

I have not done much with the Arpeggiator, but I did a quick overview of the various presents, and there are perhaps 40 presets ranging from simple to complex, but these are just favorites or whatever, and the Arpeggiator itself does a lot of other stuff . . .

This is the "Spiral Tap" preset for the MachFive 3 Arpeggiator (see below), and I enhanced it by using the "Tonal Harmonizer" event processor in MachFive 3, where the enhancers basically play a nice melodic rhythm pattern for a song based on a set of whole notes for Marimba supplied via music notation in NOTION 4, and this provides a better perspective on what you can do with MachFIve 3 when it is controlled and managed via music notation in NOTION 4 . . .

Image
MachFive 3 Arpeggiator ~ Spiral Tap Preset

These are the notes that are provided in music notation in NOTION 4 , and each one is a whole note, with the key being C and the time signature being 4/4, where the tempo is 120 beats per minute:

Code: Select all
{C4, A3, D4, G4, A4, E4, D5, B4, D4, E4, F4, G4, C4}


And this is the music that the notes played on the MachFIve 3 Marimba create when run through the Arpeggiator set to its "Spiral Tap" preset with the MachFive 3 Script Processor running the basic "Tonal Harmonizer" effect:

MachFive 3 Marimba, Arpeggiator, Tonal Harmonizer, NOTION 4 -- WAV (5.8MB, 1411-kbps, approximately 33 seconds)

For reference, the Arpeggiator and Tonal Harmonizer are what I generally call "music boxes", and Reason 6.5 (Propellerhead Software) has a virtual festival of music boxes . . .

Reason 6.5 (Propellerhead Software)

[NOTE: One way to understand Rack Extensions for Reason 6.5 is that some of them are music boxes but another group of them are components used to create, enhance, and modify music boxes . . . ]

Reason 6.5 Rack Extensions (Propellerhead Shop)

Once the Reason 6.5 music boxes are initially programmed and configured you can control and play them via music notation in NOTION 4, which is done using NOTION 4 External MIDI staves and is a bit mind-boggling with respect to what you can do once you make sense of how all the music boxes work and so forth . . .

From my perspective, the common denominator or foundation is NOTION 4, and it is what you use to make all the virtual stuff work via music notation, which is fabulous . . .

Fabulous! :D
Last edited by Surfwhammy on Wed Dec 19, 2012 3:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Notion Doesn't Play Two notes tremolos

Postby Surfwhammy » Wed Dec 19, 2012 2:48 am

alexg wrote:You need to purchase the string expansion libraries to get minor 3rd, major 3rd and perfect 4th tremolos. I'm not sure about other sections.


This makes sense, and thanks for posting the information, which is fabulous . . .

Fabulous! :)
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