NOTION Music Forum

I need some help and suggestions about this. I am starting to do soundtrackwork using Notion, and I miss a little more electronic power.

The perfect setup for me would be run 2 applications: Notion, preferably as Master, and another app as slave, in which I could set up other recorder loops, voice and whatnot. It would be perfect if the app could load also a video track.

Currently I have failed to run Ableton Live as slave (it hangs/crashes). It only works as Master, and has no video track.

I downloaded a demo of Sonar but I understand it only works as Master, it is no ReWire Client. Besides, I had a hard time setting up audio devices correctly.

That is all I know about these applications. My main work is about video, and I gave up messing with DAWs some time ago, so I don't know which one I could try for this.

I have a PC, Windows7 x64, a simple Realtek HD onboard audio (sorry about that). Any recommendations?

Reaper...? Fruity Loops..?

So far...

Ableton Live:

works nice as ReWire Master, and Notion as Slave. But I can't playback from any place I want within Notion. Playback only obbeys Live and it starts where it stopped. This only works fine is Live is your main application and Notion just an instrument, a very pretty one.

When trying to start Notion first, as Master, and Live as slave, it freezes in the welcome splash screen. Then I have to force close Live, and after this Notion will also freeze when trying to quit.


Reaper:

As a Master, you can add Notion as an instrument. Sync works both sides, so you can just sit and work inside Notion, with the only issue that the tempo will be defined in Reaper. Also I noticed a slight delay but I haven't fine-tuned it.

I wasn't able to run Reaper as slave. Reaper just stands still, listening. It 'plays' but the cursor doesn't move.

-------

Both Reaper and Live have the ability to just open a video file like if it was an Audio clip, along with a Video Windows, which is one of my purposes in this. So far, Reaper is workable. But it would be so nice to be able to run Live as a slave! or at least getting it to play at the right place from Notion.

I am comfortable recommending three Digital Audio Workstation (DAW) applications:

(1) Cubase 6.5 (Steinberg)

(2) Digital Performer (MOTU)

(3) Logic Pro 9 (Apple)

They all work on the Mac and at present Cubase 6.5 also works in Windows, but MOTU is releasing a new version of Digital Performer which works on the Mac and in Windows . . .

I am not certain what the following phrase suggests, since there are two ways to read it:

elerouxx wrote: . . . I miss a little more electronic power.

If this refers to more computing power, then I like the 27" iMac with the 3.4GHz Quad-Core Intel Core i7, AMD Radeon HD 6970M 2GB GDDR5, and 2TB Serial ATA Drive options, but if you are in the US, then the smart way to do memory is to get it from Other World Computing, because it costs less and works just as well, where currently the 32GB memory upgrade costs approximately $15 (US) less than the 16GB upgrade for Apple memory installed at the factory, and installing memory on an iMac is vastly easy. With sales tax, this puts the total price at approximately $2,500 (US), and this is a very fast and powerful Mac . . .

On the other hand, if "electronic power" refers to the various types of popular music that the so-called "Youth of Today" enjoy, then I recommend Reason 6.5 (Propellerhead Software), which you can augment with two stellar Rack Extensions (Buffre Beat Repeater and Etch Red) . . .

Buffre Beat Repeater (Propellerhead Shop)

Etch Red (Propellerhead Shop)

Mac OS X vs. Windows

As a degreed Computer Scientist, my general view is (a) that computers are machines and (b) that what matters are the abilities of the hardware, firmware, and software to do whatever needs to be done . . .

Over the years I have worked on mainframe computers, large-scale supercomputers, Windows computers, and Apple computers, all of which work nicely depending on what the various tasks happen to be . . .

I started doing software engineering in Windows in early-1987, but in 2001 I switched to the Mac for a variety of reasons, nearly all of which were focused on digital music production, although initially "digital music production" mapped to having a way to make my iPod happy, since the first iPod only worked with Apple computers, which in the grand scheme of everything maps to my purchasing an Apple computer primarily to make an iPod happy, but so what . . .

So what!

Sometime later, I discovered that stuff "just works" in the Apple universe, which certainly was a bonus once I became a bit bored with the concept of being an iPod acolyte, really . . .

Really!

In terms of what the future holds, I think that these are the key bits of information for folks who want to engage productively in digital music production and digital video production:

[NOTE: There is an iPad application called "Lemur" which transforms the iPad into a quite amazing controlling surface and, for example, makes it possible to do some intriguing things with some of the Reason 6.5 Rack Extensions, as shown in one of the Buffre Beat Repeater videos (see above), but the best overview is found at the Liine website, since Lemur can be configured with a visual interface similar to the style used for the Visual Thesaurus (a personal favorite) . . . ]

(1) Mac OS X and iOS are becoming increasingly similar, where Mac OS X is getting more features from iOS and vice-versa, and among other things this makes it considerably easier for third-party developers to have Mac and iPad applications that work cooperatively, which in turn by design creates a very specific practical focus on the Apple universe for multimedia work, which is important, because software engineering work done in Mac OS X applies to IOS, as is the case for software engineering work done in iOS applying to Mac OS X, which makes it synergistic for application development . . .

(2) With the announcement of Surface (Microsoft) and its ability to run the next version of Windows, it certainly is possible that there will be the same type of synergy in the Windows universe with respect to desktop and server-class computers and tablets, and after watching the Microsoft presentation on Surface, I am intrigued in several ways but perhaps most importantly because Microsoft is designing and building the complete machine, albeit no doubt with help from third-party vendors in the same way that Apple does. The important aspect here in the sound isolation studio is that Surface is a Microsoft designed computing device running the full version of Windows, which is vastly significant . . .

THOUGHTS

One of the basic facts at the dawn of the early-21st century is that doing (a) digital music production and (b) digital video production requires stellar computing resources (hardware, firmware, and software), and all the work is processor, memory, and hard drive intensive, which maps to the requirement to have what essentially is a supercomputer and is one of the primary reasons I recommend the 27" iMac (see above), which additionally needs to be enhanced with a MOTU 828mk3 Hybrid audio interface . . .

And the same thing applies to DAW applications, which is the reason that I recommend Cubase 6.5, Digital Performer, and Logic Pro 9 . . .

There are other DAW applications, and some of them might be nice in various ways, but if you need to do everything, then I am comfortable recommending these three DAW applications . . .

Yet another key bit of information pertaining specifically to digital video production is that Final Cut Pro X (Apple) is the industry standard, and it is a Mac OS X application, which in some respects tends to shift the focus for the DAW application to Logic Pro 9, except that there are unique advantages at present to Cubase 6.5 (primarily its support for VST 3.5.1 and its Halion VSTi instrument), and Digital Performer works nicely with Final Cut . . .

ReWire 2 (Propellerhead Software) is yet another key factor in the equation, as is VST 3.5.1 (Steinberg), of course . . .

Of course!

And with the current exception of MIDI, I already have verified that everything else works wonderfully on the Mac here in the sound isolation studio, which most recently expanded to verify that NOTION 3 is able to control Reason 6.5 via ReWire in real-time, at least for purposes of enhancing a song which has music notation controlling VSTi virtual instruments in NOTION 3 and a virtual festival of synthesizers being controlled by Reason 6.5, which actually was very easy to do once I found an excellent Notion Music video tutorial that provided the necessary clues on how to do it, which basically is that you need to create an Auxiliary track in NOTION 3 and to use it to communicate with Reason 6.5 via ReWire . . .

I am confident that the MIDI stuff works, but while in some respects I am the source of all knowledge in the known universe, at present this does not include knowing a lot about MIDI, where one of the biggest leaps in this respect earlier this year was being able to connect the Alesis ION Analog Modeling Synthesizer to the MOTU 828mk3 Hybrid via two Hosa MIDI cables that I ordered from Amazon.com, where although I am making progress toward the goal of actually understanding at least a tiny bit about MIDI, there probably are indigenous people in the jungles of Brazil who know more about MIDI than I do, but so what . . .

So what!

Consider this from the perspective of electric guitars . . .

If you want to play electric guitar proficiently, then you need a good guitar, and I recommend either a Fender American Deluxe Stratocaster or a Gibson Les Paul Standard Plus, because they are good professional quality guitars, and the prices are in the range of $1,500 to $2,500 (US), which is not small change, but most of the cost is the materiel, and for example once you start doing a lot of string bends, the fact of the matter is that you need high-quality metal components and a strong neck if you expect the guitar to stay in tune at least for the duration of the longest song you need to play . . .

In other words, if you expect to do high-quality digital music production and digital video production, then you need to have a high-quality vastly-powerful supercomputer running high-quality software where (a) everything works productively and (b) you can verify it, because otherwise you are spinning wheels and wasting your valuable time . . .

Beliefs are a key aspect of being human, but in the grand scheme of everything facts work best when one is doing science, and the hardware, firmware, and software aspects of doing digital music production and digital video production are science, and when you get the science right, you then can focus on the intangible aspects, which here in the sound isolation studio is the best strategy, which is fabulous . . .

Fabulous!

Well, thanks for your recommendation. I think I might give old Cubase a try, just to check if it works properly with Notion.

I admit being ambiguous with the terms 'Electronic power'. I meant more sound and resources from a musical point of view, however not particularly of the electronic flavor of the current hits for the youth. I like concert music from all ages, and maybe a little lounge flavor sometimes, but always looking for an amount of unexpected sound either acoustic or electronic, as opposite from typical beats and loops we have heard enough times.

In short terms, I found Ableton Live to be PURE FUN. It feels a little unortodox on the beginning but it's just a disguise. It's not so different, and it isn't hard to use in any way, has a lot of original sounds and instruments. Very productive. Plus it handles video very well.

So Fun is the word.


The only problem with this setup is that it either:

Doesn't start as slave, or

As a Master, it doesn't 'follow the cursor' from Notion as slave, which it should.



PS: I won't buy a Mac any time soon.

elerouxx wrote:I think I might give old Cubase a try, just to check if it works properly with Notion.

Steinberg has a 30-day trial version of Cubase 6.5, but there does not appear to be a trial version of Nuendo 5 . . .

The primary intriguing aspect of Cubase 6.5 is its support for VST 3.5.1 and its Halion synthesizer, but it is important to understand that Steinberg separates the audio and video work into two general applications, where Cubase 6.5 is focused on audio and Nuendo 5 is focused on integrating audio with video . . .

Another useful bit of information is that getting Cubase 6.5 and Nuendo 5 costs approximately $2,300 (US), which from my perspective makes getting the 27" iMac, Logic Pro 9, and Final Cut Pro X considerably more attractive, since Final Cut Pro X costs $300 (US) and Logic Pro 9 costs $200 (US) at the Mac App Store, and the 27" iMac can handle the workload for Final Cut Pro X and Logic Pro 9, although rendering audio and video takes a while even on a Mac Pro, where for example it took over an hour on the 2.8-GHz 8-core Mac Pro to render the audio and video for the approximately 3 minute and 30 second YouTube music video I did for one of the Surf Whammys songs, which was not high-resolution video, and for reference I used Final Cut Express for the video work and Digital Performer for the audio work, all of which was done with real instruments that I actually played and recorded, although the video performances were mimed . . .

[NOTE: This video is edited from approximately four hours of video shot with a $200 (US) SONY camcorder which is approximately the size of a deck of cards and was pretty good quality in 2010, but the newer SONY camcorders are much better although still in the same price range, and for reference the keys to doing low-cost video work are DISCO lights and a fog machine . . . ]

"(I Want) Angela Gossow's Underpants (Ya-Ya-Ya)" (The Surf Whammys) -- YouTube music video

The general rule for multimedia work is that you want the fastest and most powerful computer you can afford, and this is all the more important when you are doing video editing and rendering, where the workflow basically is two-part, where one part is focused on editing and the other part is focused on rendering, and the part that takes the longest time in terms of processing is rendering, which depending on the length and complexity of the piece can take hours or days in some instances, while the editing part generally is peppy, even when you are doing transformations on the various video clips . . .

From the perspective of Computer Science, the slowest components are hard drives, and they operate in milliseconds, so especially for video work, it makes sense to consider getting a Solid State Drive (SSD), which basically is a block of flash memory and is significantly faster than a hard drive, which is fabulous . . .

Fabulous!

I've been in the same boat for over a year now. I want to use Notion for video scoring, but rewire simply does not work. I've had to use other programs while I wait for a fix. I hope Notion 4 delivers, and I hope that pricing is fair to those of us who bought Notion for the rewire capability.

pcartwright wrote:I've been in the same boat for over a year now. I want to use Notion for video scoring, but rewire simply does not work. I've had to use other programs while I wait for a fix. I hope Notion 4 delivers, and I hope that pricing is fair to those of us who bought Notion for the rewire capability.

Thanks for sharing your experience on the matter. I've been playing around but now it is becoming a need. Which is good because 1) things have more chances to be solved when there's need and 2) there's some money waiting.

My first experience was all done in Notion, using mediavst.dll to host the video, but with the stuttering audio from the video muted (voiceover). So I imported a WAV file separatedly, and I was done. It went pretty well.

My next problem is the need to incorporate some elements. Mainly:

-recorded vocals and instruments, which have to be edited and mixed along.
-sound effects
-real-life loops which are usually better than, i.e., notated drum rhythms

So far, I managed to use REAPER as master. Even having notion as slave, the transport works perfectly both ways, so I'm trying to learn a little more about this (affordable) DAW. Yet, I would love the most to have Ableton Live working along.

I would see no problem in having Notion as slave as long if both could handle transport, as it should be.
Also note that Ableton doesn't have access to VST plugins while a slave, so it's better to have it as master.

Does rewire work with Notion and Reaper with a video file loaded to Reaper?

Yes! like a charm! but Reaper is the master. Not a bad thing imo.