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Notion 4.....

A Forum to Discuss NOTION

Re: Notion 4.....

Postby Surfwhammy » Thu Aug 02, 2012 2:21 pm

deanesque wrote:
Surfwhammy wrote:And summer hasn't started yet in Australia, where it currently is winter, really . . .

Really! :o



This is the shortest post ever from Surfhammy. I must have been painful! :D


The air conditioner stopped working here in the sound isolation studio and the replacement part has not arrived; I am trying to determine how to write a song like "Rolling In The Deep" (Adele); and if it gets much hotter I won't be able to practice my Daler Mehndi dance moves . . .

"Kudiyan Shehar Diyan" (Daler Mehndi) -- YouTube music video

[NOTE: Marina Dalmas sings it better than Adele, and her version has 20 million more YouTube hits. I think the difference is that since French is her primary language, she is singing a textured caricature, which is vastly important, where an example is singing "egg shell sea us" rather than "ecclesias", which makes it easier for a skilled producer to make it sound "big" . . . ]

"Rolling In The Deep" (Adele) -- Marina Dalmas, France's Got Talent -- YouTube music video

(1) I need to map my vocal range, since at present all I know is that it runs from bass to Brian Wilson style falsetto, but I need to map it to notes . . .

(2) These types of songs have melodies that follow a curve, but there are discordant bits that make it less obvious . . .

(3) I am going to get the Hit Trax MIDI version, because it is faster than transcribing everything . . .

600 million people in India have no electricity for several days, and my air conditioner stops working, which is a bit surreal, hence the only logical thing to do is to create a new persona which is a combination of a French school girl and an Indian Pop star, so until the air conditioner starts working I am going to be Penni Mehndi™ and pretend that I am in a Bollywood movie, really . . .

Really! :P

P. S. It is easier to understand the importance of singing this way with respect to skilled producers being able to enhance the singing with reverberation and echos in this song, also featuring Marina Dalmas . . .

"Set Fire To The Rain" (Adele) -- Marina Dalmas, France's Got Talent -- YouTube music video

Roy Orbison wrote songs like this, as well, which is fabulous . . .

"In Dreams" (Roy Orbison) -- YouTube music video

Fabulous! :ugeek:
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Re: Notion 4.....

Postby deanesque » Thu Aug 02, 2012 10:18 pm

Now doesn't that feel better?
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Re: Notion 4.....

Postby Surfwhammy » Sat Aug 04, 2012 8:30 am

deanesque wrote:Now doesn't that feel better?


For sure! :D

On a related note, I remixed one of the songs from the first Surf Whammys album, which among other things is the way I discovered (a) that I am a bit psychic at times and (b) that the aliens from outer space really did insert a communication device into my brain, which they use to beam me songs . . .

The background on the song is that every so often I follow criminal cases, and in June 2007 I was following a case involving a missing pregnant woman in Ohio . . .

The song appeared in its entirety almost instantly three days before this new report:

Jessie Davis Body Found (National Park Service Report)

This was during the time when I only did stuff a minimal number of times, based on misunderstanding something that an audio engineer told me in the mid-1970s about Paul McCartney, which led me to think quite incorrectly that McCartney does everything spontaneously on the first or second take, including composing songs and lyrics, so everything is done in real-time on the fly, where the singing is the third time I sang the song, since the first time was focused on composing the melody and lyrics, and the second time was focused on meter . . .

And this was done before I became fully aware of the importance of emphasizing the ending consonants and sibilants for words when singing, mostly since I forgot it, because I knew it half a century ago. The instruments are a real electric bass guitar and a KORG Triton Music Workstation (88-Keys), which has some nice presets for strings, grand piano, and tinkling bells, really . . .

"Somewhere" (The Surf Whammys) -- Remix August 2012 -- MP3 (7.8MB, 280-kbps [VBR], approximately 3 minutes and 36 seconds)

Really! :cry:

P. S. This is the way a song sounds approximately 30 minutes after it appears, albeit with a bit of after the fact producing and enhancing with TrackPlug 5 (Wave Arts), Melodyne Editor (Celemony), Vintage Progam Equalizer EQP-1A (IK Multimedia), White 2A Leveling Amplifier (IK Multimedia), CSR Classik Studio Reverb (IK Multimedia), Timeless 2 (FabFilter Software Instruments), Opto-Compressor (IK Multimedia), and Brickwall Limiter (IK Multimedia), as well as a full-range studio monitor system, where it also helps to know how to play electric bass, since a skilled bass player can make just about any singer sound at least pretty good, which is fabulous . . .

Fabulous! :ugeek:
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Re: Notion 4.....

Postby Timoty » Tue Aug 07, 2012 2:50 pm

I want to say that surfwhammy's posts originally used to drive me nuts, but now if I don't see any in a thread I get slightly upset!
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Re: Notion 4.....

Postby wcreed51 » Wed Aug 08, 2012 8:09 am

Sounds like a danger sign...
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Re: Notion 4.....

Postby bogdan1 » Sat Aug 11, 2012 10:42 am

Hi Notion team,
Since you just mentioned that Notion 4 is on your list, there are any thoughts of supporting other libraries as well?
I think it would be, at least from my point of view, a great and useful thing.
Thanks,
b
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Re: Notion 4.....

Postby TOSCANINI » Sun Aug 12, 2012 2:37 pm

I'm agree, i think we deserve some informations on Notion 4 ? At first, new vst libraries supporting...

We hope for it since a looooong time without any information...
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Re: Notion 4.....

Postby Surfwhammy » Sun Aug 12, 2012 4:48 pm

I understand the apparent fact that for some folks it is vastly important to be able to fine-tune everything with custom rules, as well as to have preconfigured templates and rules for particular VSTi products and sound libraries, but as best as I have been able to determine this is something that already is possible in NOTION 3, although it appears to require a lot of work . . .

There is a virtual festival of VSTi products and sound libraries, where the most common orchestral and symphonic products and sound libraries appear to provided by East West Quantum Leap (EWQL), Garritan (GPO), IK Multimedia (Miroslav Philharmonik), Native Instruments (Kontakt), and Vienna Symphonic Library (VSL, VSE), and at least some of these already are supported in NOTION 3 in various flavors, although currently perhaps more in terms of older versions, but so what . . .

So what!

Using a solo violin as an example, it is not sufficient for some folks to have a solo violin that sounds "kind of" like a real violin, and I certainly understand this, because getting a VSTi virtual violin to sound like a real violin is not an easy activity, no matter how it is done . . .

And the same thing applies to electric guitar, which is my primary instrument, where although NOTION 3 supports a lot of articulations, dynamics, and techniques, it generally is easier for me to play the part on an highly modified Fender American Deluxe Stratocaster than to attempt to do everything with detailed articulations and so forth, since the reality here in the sound isolation studio is that there are no easily customized articulations for some of the stuff I do, plus it takes too long to try to do it via music notation . . .

Yet another very important consideration is the newest version of Steinberg's VST technology, which currently is VST 3.5.1, and this is vastly important, because VST 3.5.1 allows vastly detailed note by note specifications of the way notes are to be played, which as I understand everything moves the detailed work to the specific VSTi virtual instrument where the work is done within the VSTi virtual instrument's user interface and environment, where the overall strategy is more like the way MachFive 3 (MOTU) does most of its work in the MachFIve user environment, although when running in NOTION 3, MachFIve 3 (MOTU) presents itself in the older VST style, which is one way to explain it simplistically, and it also provides a clue to the reason that MachFive 3 is "very heavy" in terms of computer resources when it is operating as a 32-bit VSTi virtual instrument with NOTION 3 . . .

My perspective is based on pondering what makes the most sense in terms of optimizing the time of the software designers and engineers at Notion Music, and from this perspective I am not so certain that there is a lot of added value in providing general templates and rule sets for specific flavors and versions of the more popular VSTi virtual instruments and sound libraries, especially when it is highly likely that all these VSTi virtual instruments and sound libraries will have new versions with greatly enhanced features and functionality in the not so distant future . . .

Explained another way, I think the industry trend for this type of highly-intimate customization is that it will be moved specifically to the VSTI virtual instruments and sound libraries, which from my perspective makes ensuring that NOTION 4 supports VST 3.5.1 fully, as well as fully supporting 64-bit ReWire (Propellerhead), two of the most important and productive activities for the Notion Music software designers and engineers . . .

I also think it makes great sense for NOTION 4 to be able to interact fully and intimately with Reason 6.5 (Propellerhead Software) as a real-time MIDI controller, including full 64-bit ReWire, because while Reason 6.5 might not be particularly useful for orchestral and symphonic genres, it is vastly useful for all of what one might call the "popular music" genres, which for the most part maps to music that adolescents and young adults enjoy on their iPods and whatever, which is very important for folks like me who are focused at present on composing and recording silly DISCO and Pop songs about personal hygiene products for adolescents and young adults, as well as ladies underpants, because I think everyone certainly can agree that there never can be too many songs about personal hygiene products and ladies underpants, which is fabulous . . .

Image

[NOTE: This is done entirely with music notation, VSTi virtual instruments, sound libraries, and VST effects plug-ins, where the music notation and instruments are handled by NOTION 3 with the generated audio recorded as soundbites in Digital Performer 7.24 (MOTU) via ReWire, where the VST effects plug-ins work is done as part of the producing, mixing, and mastering steps in Digital Performer 7.24 . . . ]

"Tastes Like Anarchy" (The Surf Whammys) -- Basic Rhythm Section -- MP3 (8.8MB, 301-kbps [VBR], approximately 3 minutes and 51 seconds)

Fabulous! :D

P. S. In other words, if all the detailed articulation, dynamics, and techniques stuff is moving specifically in the the realm of VSTi virtual instruments and sound libraries, which I think it clearly is, then support it fully but in a way that makes the most sense for NOTION 4, because attempting to second-guess what the VSTi virtual instrument and sound library vendors will do over the long run makes little if any sense, and I certainly think that it makes the most sense for the highly-detailed stuff to be done by the VSTi virtual instruments and sound libraries within their unique user interfaces and environments, where based on my current understanding of the way NOTION 3 works, the general strategy is that NOTION 3 (a) requests a note in a very specific way and then (b) the VSTI virtual instrument and sound library provides the requested audio in real-time after doing some calculations and whatever . . .

From this perspective, some of the additional work that NOTION 3 does is done primarily because under the older version of VST it was the only practical way to do it, but I think this has changed with the release of VST 3.5.1, and this puts the authority and responsibility for this part of the work solely in the realm of the VSTi virtual instruments and sound libraries vendors, which I think is the most logical and practical way to do it, since among other things the VSTi virtual instruments and sound libraries folks have their own unique user interfaces, environments, tools, and so forth, really . . .

Really! :ugeek:

P. P. S. This is one of the reasons that I think Notion Music needs to have a NOTION Developer Program, NOTION Software Development Kit (SDK), and a NOTION Store for vendors and 3rd party developers, where for example instead of Notion Music doing highly-detailed sets of templates, rule sets, and so forth for VSTi virtual instruments and sound libraries, as well as libraries of musical phrases and so forth, either (a) the vendor can do it or (b) some other 3rd party developer can do it and then based on whatever makes the most sense for the vendor or 3rd party developer they can decide whether to make it a free add-on or a purchased add-on, which is the way that Propellerhead Software manages its Rack Extensions developer program and Apple manages its various stores for vendors and 3rd party developers, which (a) works nicely for everyone (vendors, 3rd party developers, and customers) and (b) maps to a deep and rich experience for customers, for sure . . .

For sure! :D
Last edited by Surfwhammy on Mon Aug 13, 2012 5:50 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Notion 4.....

Postby TOSCANINI » Mon Aug 13, 2012 1:04 am

Agree with you, for myself, all i want is this kind of VST control possibilities for Notion :

http://www.soundsetproject.com/

This kind of stuff (even if i have to pay extra cost) + Notion who was the best notation program ever...
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Re: Notion 4.....

Postby Surfwhammy » Mon Aug 13, 2012 7:28 am

TOSCANINI wrote:Agree with you, for myself, all i want is this kind of VST control possibilities for Notion :

http://www.soundsetproject.com/

This kind of stuff (even if i have to pay extra cost) + Notion who was the best notation program ever...


Interesting!
:)

It makes sense, and there certainly appears to be a market for it . . .

My solution at present is to keep everything as simple as possible, which in some respects is an understatement, where for example I have a separate staff for each drum and cymbal in a drumkit, even though I could do it with fewer staves by using voices and so forth, except that combining everything introduces a lot of complexity and makes the music notation look entirely too "busy". Also, when I play a real drumkit, I play notes intentionally, where "intentionally" maps to knowing exactly what I am doing, since I literally think about it in an immediately conscious way, especially with respect to where I hit the drumheads and cymbals, which among other things is the reason that I never break drumheads and cymbals. Another important reason is that I make my own custom drumsticks from 5/8" oak dowels, since I prefer 22" drumsticks and nobody makes them. When I first had the idea to make custom drumsticks, I tried various strategies, including splicing parts of two drumsticks to make a longer drumstick, but after a few experiments with splicing (none of which worked reliably) I had the idea of using 5/8" oak dowels, which is easy to do and does not take a lot of work other than some sanding and varnishing or painting, and one of the things I observed is that hitting the edges of cymbals chips the drumsticks, hence they do not last so long, and after thinking about it for a while I realized that hitting cymbals only with the tips of the drumsticks or hitting the smooth top area of a cymbal with the side of a drumstick is the least destructive way to play cymbals, which probably applies to drumsticks in general, and for drumheads the key is to hit them in the center, which is a bit easier when drumheads have a smaller reinforced black circle in the center, which some but not all drumheads have, plus hitting in the center maps to deep and rich tone . . .

Sometimes, I might have two drums or cymbals per staff, although only when I can do it with a single voice, but most of the time it is one staff per drum or cymbal, and for me this is easier . . .

And I use the same strategy for everything, where if I need a different articulation, I usually do it with a different staff, where instead of actually specifying the articulation in music notation I select the sound sample for the instrument in the specific articulation, since (a) this works better; (b) avoids the problems of arbitrarily computing or emulating notes which were not sampled in a specific articulation, which is a bit of a problem for articulations like tremolo and vibrato, where for tremolo I use a dry articulation and then run it through a tremolo pedal later, and (c) keeps the music notation very simple, which is important, because reading and applying articulations in music notation requires a bit of additional computing, hence is a bit more resource intensive . . .

This strategy is consistent by "play by ear", where the general idea is adjust the instrument so that it either (a) naturally sound correct without needing to specify articulations, dynamics, and so forth or (b) can be made to sound naturally correct by applying VST effects plug-ins after the fact in the Digital Audio Workstation (DAW) application, which for reference is the optimal way to use VST effects plug-ins with respect to computer resources . . .

Yet another feature I would like to have is the ability to generate, store, and retrieve musical phrases using a various mathematical and geometric algorithms, music theory, and a SQLite database, since for the genres I prefer the facts of the matter are (a) that there are standard musical phrases and (b) that inputting them one note at a time or playing them in real-time on a MIDI device is not the optimal strategy . . .

After working diligently with music notation for a while, I discovered how to do it, which is great, but it takes a while, so at present I "park" musical phrases in small scores and use them to copy and paste, which works but (a) it is not so elegant and (b) it does not use algorithms. There is a roundabout way to use algorithms to generate musical phrases, but it is a bit cumbersome and at present it actually is easier to input the notes one at a time . . .

And in some respects I want something similar to what the Melodyne Editor (Celemony) and TC-Helicon VoiceWorks vocal processor do, where I can specify a specific scale (for example, Hungarian Minor) and the Melodyne Editor will constrain notes to it, or at least provide a visual cue when notes are out of bounds. And the TC-Helicon VoiceWorks vocal processor generates multipart harmony based on various parameters (key, scale, harmony style, and so forth), so I want that stuff as well, and it is a naturally intuitive thing for composition software to do using intelligent algorithms, plus there are few if any mysteries with respect to the underlying music theory, mathematics, and geometry, where getting it "ballpark" would be a big help, since once the notes are generated and inserted into the score I can fine-tune everything on a note-by-note basis, which is what I do anyway . . .

Stuff like this makes it easier to work at a higher level, where for example the way I conceptualize Lydian mode involves focusing on "Blue Jay Way" (Beatles), which is the easiest way for me to do it, since it does not require me actually to remember what Lydian mode is, which is a "play by ear" type of thing, where the general idea is to avoid needing to remember a bunch of music theory and technical stuff, and I am not entirely certain that "Blue Jay Way" actually is strictly Lydian, but so what . . .

"Blue Jay Way" (Beatles) -- YouTube music video

So what!

On a related note, after working diligently for several months to make sense of the standard seven modes (Ionic, Dorian, Phyrigian, Lydian, Mixolydian, Aeolian, and Locrian), I realized that it generally is a waste of time to mess with modes, because the real focus should be on scales, since there are more scales than modes, and it is easier to focus on scales, plus (a) most of the scales I like do not map to any of the seven modes and (b) the types of songs I prefer typically span several scales, modes, and whatever, where from this perspective using different scales in a song is similar conceptually to having verses, choruses, bridges, interludes, and so forth, as well as changing the instrumentation or whatever in various sections for dramatic effect . . .

In other words, the general idea is not that the computer is doing all the work, just that the computer is making it easier by providing when desired some convenient guidelines, constraints, or whatever makes sense and is productive, which is fabulous . . .

Fabulous! :D

P. S. Regarding modes and scales, consider the basic rhythm section for this song . . .

[NOTE: In some respects, I prefer not to know what I am doing in any immediately conscious way, since it is easier simply to make notes sound "good" by adjusting the notes, and when necessary making them flat or sharp, which for me is an iterative process that involves a lot of listening . . . ]

"I Want To Dance With You" (The Surf Whammys) -- Basic Rhythm Section -- MP3 (9.9MB, 286-kbps [VBR], approximately 4 minutes and 34 seconds)

It has a minor or perhaps melancholy theme, but there are sustained fourths and some sevenths, and it goes major every once in a while. Some of the idea for the song derives from Christina Aguilera's updated version of Marlene Dietrich's song "Falling In Love Again (Can't Help Myself)", but until I decide on a melody for the vocals, in some respects the song can be just about anything, since in the same way that a bass line can change everything, so can a melody, which is the basic reason that I started focusing more on making sense of scales, really . . .

"Falling In Love Again (Can't Help Myself)" (Christina Aguilera) -- YouTube music video

Really! :ugeek:
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