Which Mac computer will run orchestral projects with VSL?

[Rubens]

Hi guys.
I want a help to choose a new mac computer. I already have a macbook pro 2.4 core 2 duo, with a special memory I bought that makes it run with 6gb ram! Unfortunately it is no longer been able to aid me in my large projects... When I try to run VSL ensemble pro or even instruments pro mixed with Notion samples it just can't handle.
Offcourse I want to buy what is enough for me to work... So about you people any experiences with the new macbook pro or even the new Imac?
Thank you very much,

Rubens.

[Surfwhammy]

I already have a macbook pro 2.4 core 2 duo, with a special memory I bought that makes it run with 6gb ram! When I try to run VSL ensemble pro or even instruments pro mixed with Notion samples it just can't handle.

I do not use VSL, so perhaps someone else can help with VSL specifics, but the problem you have encountered most likely is a matter of NOTION 3 being a 32-bit application, which means that the most memory it can use is 4GB, and this includes all the stuff you load into its application workspace . . .

I do everything on a 2.8-GHz 8-core Mac Pro (Early 2008), and when I watch NOTION 3 running in Activity Monitor it uses perhaps 15 to 20 percent of the available processors, which maps to approximately 1 of the 8 cores, which tends to indicate that everything is coded sequentially as contrasted to being coded to use multiple cores in parallel and so forth and so on . . .

If you can be more specific regarding what happens, as well as what you consider to be a "large project", I can provide more information, but this sounds like you have encountered the 32-bit application workspace limitation . . .

I use IK Multimedia VSTi virtual instruments, Kontakt 5 (Native Instruments) VSTi virtual instruments, and FabFilter Software VSTi virtual instruments, and all of them are "heavy", where the general rule here in the sound isolaiton studio is that NOTION 3 can handle approximately 20 to 25 "heavy" VSTi virtual instruments in a single score . . .

I might need as many as 500 to 1,000 "heavy" VSTi virtual instruments, so my strategy is to create a set of NOTION 3 scores, which I "synchronize" by cloning them from the original first score and then keeping perhaps 5 instruments common to all the scores, where the common instruments are used for reference purposes, which makes the other 20 instruments available for new parts . . .

As each new score is completed, I record the NOTION 3 generated audio in Digital Performer 7.24 (MOTU) as soundbites via ReWire, where Digital Performer 7.24 is the ReWire host controller and NOTION 3 is the ReWire slave . . .

There are a few rules for doing this, and they are explained in one of my topics on this FORUM, where the three strangest rules involve ReWire:

(1) There need to be four empty measures at the start of the NOTION 3 score . . .

(2) Never move the transport earlier than the start of the 5th measure . . .

(3) Do not use the first five channel pairs, since they have single-digit channel numbers . . .

Notion 3, DISCO Songs, and Sparkles (Notion Music FORUM)

The key to the strategy is layering, where you create a song in layers, both in NOTION 3 and Digital Performer 7.24, where Digital Performer 7.24 is the Digital Audio Workstation (DAW) application, and it also is a 32-bit application, hence is subject to the same 32-bit application workspace limitations, but since NOTION 3 is generating the audio and sending it to Digital Performer 7.24 via ReWire, once the NOTION 3 generated audio is recorded in Digital Performer 7.24 as "soundbites", NOTION 3 is out of the picture, which makes plenty of space available for Digital Performer 7.24, since "soundbites" are not particularly "heavy" in terms of processing requirements . . .

So, I do all the VST effects plug-ins work in Digital Performer 7.24, but I do the VSTi virtual instrument work in NOTION 3 . . .

Depending on the number of instruments, sometimes I need to combine soundbites to create a new stereo soundbite, which then replaces all the individual soundbites that were combined, and this in turn frees more tracks for use in Digital Performer 7.24, which makes it the DAW application analog of doing the same thing with magnetic tape recorders, which is the way Phil Spector created his "Wall of Sound" in the late-1950s and early-1960s, and it is the way George Martin and the audio engineers at Abbey Road Studios created multiple layers of instruments and singing when they recorded the Beatles . . .

The techniques are nearly identical, although it is done in a somewhat different way, but in great contrast to doing it with analog magnetic tape, there is no generational loss, but another problem occurs, which specifically is that background noise and hiss accumulates, so it is very important to get strong recording signal levels, as well as to use noise gates when it is convenient . . .

In some respects, the entire thing is vastly complex, but it makes sense after a while . . .

And as best as I have been able to determine, it all started with Les Paul in the early-1950s when Bing Crosby got him some Ampex analog magnetic tape recorders, where this YouTube video provides a nice overview of the way Les Paul created the first "Wall of Guitars" . . .

[NOTE: This was done in the early-1950s, so there is a bit of joking around and general silliness that runs for about 8 minutes and 30 seconds, but there is some good information on the technique, and then starting at 8:30 you can hear how 12 guitar tracks and 12 vocal tracks sound as they record another guitar track and another vocal track . . . ]

Les Paul and Mary Ford ("Omnibus", Alistair Cooke) -- YouTube video

Regarding new Apple computers, I like the new 21.5" iMac, and the strategy I use is to get the most basic model from Amazon.com a week or two before Apple releases a new model, since Amazon.com usually discounts the basic model by as much as 7 to 8 percent, although only for a few days. And I get memory from Other World Computing, since it costs a lot less and Apple memory, which also is the case with internal hard drives for the Mac Pro . . .

I go with the numbers, where if doing a special order to get a faster processor cost 20 percent more but the faster processor is only 10 percent faster than the basic model, then it costs too much to get only 10 percent faster performance, and most of the time the computer is not doing a lot, so 10 percent or 20 percent faster performance only makes sense when one is doing something like video rendering, CGI, or stuff that is highly processor and memory intensive, which for digital music production tends never to be the case when you use the "layering" techniques . . .

It also is useful to know that Apple has reduced the prices for Logic Pro and Final Cut Pro when they are purchased through the Mac App Store and downloaded, where Logic Pro 9 costs $200 and Final Cut Pro costs $300, not including sales tax, which is a significant price reduction . . .

I am intrigued by Logic Pro 9, because (a) it is a 64-bit DAW application and (b) it has true stereo panning controls, which is not the case with Digital Performer 7.24, since it only has stereo balance controls, which are entirely different and are not true panning controls . . .

Curiously, the NOTION 3 Mixer also has true stereo panning controls, where the difference is that a stereo balance control only lets you adjust the volume of the left and right channels but a true stereo panning control lets you move the left channel to the right channel and vice-versa . . .

For example, if a trumpet is recorded to the right channel of a stereo track, but a saxophone is recorded to the left channel of the same stereo track, then with a balance control you can make the saxophone and trumpet louder or softer, respectively, but the saxophone always is on the left while the trumpet always is on the right, but with a true stereo panning control, you can move each instrument wherever you want it to appear, and you can put both instruments on the same side, which is not possible with a stereo balance control . . .

SUMMARY

(1) I think that you have encountered the 32-bit application workspace limitation . . .

(2) As the number of instruments increases, at some point you will need to use a "layering" strategy . . .

(3) I like the new 21.5" iMac, where it specifically is the basic model, which you extend with memory from Other World Computing, and for truly peppy performance you can add an external SSD drive. I like the LaCie d2 Quadra External Hard Drive as a second hard drive, which will be reasonably peppy when you connect it using FireWire 800, where the general rule is that you get the most performance for the lowest cost when you focus on the slowest component, which basically is the hard drive, since the processors and memory do stuff in nanoseconds and microseconds but hard drives do stuff in milliseconds, with the exception of SSD drives, which are solid state memory drives. You already have a reasonably new MacBook Pro, which is fast computer, so I think that a new iMac probably makes the most sense, and if you want a lightning fast iMac, then the new 27" iMac with some "build to order" factory upgrades, specifically the 3.4GHz Core i7 quad-core processor and internal SSD drive upgrades, is faster than a 6-core Mac Pro, although I would not do the Apple memory upgrade, which costs $600 to get 16GB of memory, since you can get 32GB of memory at Other World Computing for approximately $500 or 16GB of memory for about $250 and install it yourself . . .

iMac (Apple)

iMac Memory (Other World Computing)

Solid State Drives (Other World Computing)

d2 Quadra External Hard Drive (LaCie)

Lab Report: Core i7 SSD iMac is the fastest Mac we've tested (MacWorld, June 2011)

Lots of FUN!

[wcreed51]

If you have VE Pro, you could also build an inexpensive PC slave system just to stream samples from.

I can't help you with a MAC...

[Rubens]

Hi, thank you both for the help.
I do have VE Pro... So, if I build an inexpensive PC to use as a slave I will solve my issue? My macbook pro is not even opening a VSL instrument when I am working with the orchestral template when the file is heavy, like 1:30min long, and it takes to manny seconds with de color round thing thinking after any note edited or a play command that I have the desire to give up!
Any of you have any clue about when Notion will be 64bit?

Thank you all,

Rubens.

[Surfwhammy]

I do have VE Pro... So, if I build an inexpensive PC to use as a slave I will solve my issue? My macbook pro is not even opening a VSL instrument when I am working with the orchestral template when the file is heavy, like 1:30min long, and it takes to manny seconds with de color round thing thinking after any note edited or a play command that I have the desire to give up!

I have tried to make sense of the various Vienna Symphonic Library products several times, but the company is German and it is not so easy for me to get into a German mindset . . .

Yet, I find that the Melodyne Editor (Celemony), which is done by a German company, is very easy to use . . .

[NOTE: The way the products are described and presented at the VSL website is done in a style that basically presumes that you already know the high-level architecture, which is great unless you have no idea what the high-level architecture is. It is vastly confusing, but in great contrast I was able to make sense of the Melodyne Editor in just a few minutes, and I can follow the German language video tutorials, since the visual stuff makes sense. Yet I read about VE Pro for about an hour, and I continue to have few if any ideas what it actually is other than something like a DAW application but not exactly, and I am not at all clear on how it pertains to the VSL virtual instruments. It is very confusing to me . . . ]

For me, perhaps the biggest hurdle to making sense of the Vienna Symphonic Library products is the requirement to use a dongle, and the reality is that I hate dongles . . .

[NOTE: I fully understand the need to protect intellectual property, and I am fine with software licensing schemes, but dongles move everything into the neurotically paranoid universe, and I refuse to support paranoia. If a company does not trust its customers sufficiently to use software only licensing schemes, then I do not trust the company enough to become their customer. Using an abstruse analogy, metaphor, or simile, you can tattoo my computer but putting a ring in my nose is too invasive, and in this example a "tattoo" is a software liscensing scheme, while a "ring" is a dongle. In other words, I am fine with the Nalpeiron software licensing scheme, but I am not fine with dongles (USB or otherwise) . . . ]

However, I think that you should be able to use the various Vienna Symphonic Library products on your MacBook Pro, but (a) I have no idea how to configure everything and (b) since I will not purchase or use a dongle there is no way for me to experiment with the demo version . . .

Nevertheless, in doing a bit of research and reading various VSL FORUM posts, a few suggestions come to mind:

(1) You can run Mac OS X 10.6 (Snow Leopard) or Mac OS X 10.7 (Lion) in 64-bit mode, and this is fine with NOTION 3, even though NOTION 3 is a 32-bit application. One way to run Snow Leopard in 64-bit mode is to reboot the machine and then when the screen goes black press and hold the "6" and "4" numeric keys, which are located above the alphabetic keys. Continue holding the "6" and "4" keys until the Mac OS X Login screen appears. This also works for Lion, but I just installed Lion and it might run in 64-bit mode automatically . . .

(2) If you are using MIDI to setup an instrument staff for the VSL stuff, I think that you want to use VST rather than MIDI as the interface in the NOTION 3 Setup window. I base this on some VSL FORUM posts where people were having problems with NOTION 3, and the advice was to use the VST interface rather than trying to connect directly via MIDI, but the posts appeared to be German or French translated to English, and they were difficult to follow, so all I can do is guess . . .

(3) The VSL website very clearly states that VE PRO runs in either 32-bit or 64-bit on the Mac (Snow Leopard and Lion) and that you can run side-by-side servers on the same machine, which tends to suggest (a) that you can run VE PRO in 64-bit mode when you boot Mac OS X (Snow Leopard or Lion) to 64-bit mode and (b) that you can run NOTION 3, since even though NOTION 3 is a 32-bit application, it runs nicely in Snow Leopard and Lion when the operating system is running in 64-bit mode. This might solve the problem . . .

(4) I am not so clear on what "1:30min long" indicates. If it refers to 1 minute and 30 seconds, this is not a long time, but if it refers to 1 hour and 30 minutes, then I think you need to separate it into smaller sections . . .

SUMMARY

Intuitively, I think that you should be able to use VSL products with NOTION 3 on a 2010 MacBook Pro, but due primarily to my great dislike of dongles, there is not much I can do to provide more help . . .

If the streaming sample strategy works, which I suppose is the case since the folks who regularly post to this FORUM are very smart and nearly always have excellent advice and information, then based on what I read at the VSL website about Mac OS X 64-bit support, you should be able to use a new 21.5" iMac as a streaming server with the appropriate 1GB ethernet cable or whatever . . .

And for reference NOTION 3 works very nicely with all the IK Multimedia VSTi and Kontakt 5 virtual instruments, which I can verify, because I use them . . .

Lots of FUN!

Any of you have any clue about when Notion will be 64bit?

My best guess at present is that the folks at Notion Music are focused on developing and marketing products for the iPad2 and probably have created a very nice revenue stream . . .

In the short run, this is not so good for the professional composers who use NOTION 3, but over the long run it is likely to be quite excellent for the Mac folks, since most of what is done for an iPad2 app in iOS applies directly to Mac OS X applications . . .

The fact of the matter is that nothing does what NOTION 3 does, so from a perhaps odd perspective I am fine with NOTION 3 for a while . . .

I would like NOTION 4 to appear sooner or later and I want it to be a 64-bit application on the Mac, but I have no idea when this might happen . . .

Yet, I think that it needs to happen this year (2012), if only because it does not take so long for other companies to copy great ideas . . .

NOTION is unique, but it only will be unique so long as nobody copies all the great ideas, and based on the way things work at the dawn of the early-21st century, the fact of the matter is that it does not take so long for other companies to copy great ideas . . .

I have no financial and market data on Notion Music, so all I can do is a bit of guessing based on the participation levels when IK Multimedia has one of its truly absurd "group buy" discount extravaganzas where the more customers who join the "group buy" by purchasing one product, the more free products everyone gets, and IK Multimedia does this in tiers, so it is easy to determine how many customers participate, which leads me to suggest that IK Multimedia has somewhere in the range of 10,000 customers who only buy stuff when it is heavily discounted . . .

By this somewhat abstruse inference, if there are 10,000 customers for IK Multimedia VSTi virtual instruments, one might speculate that Notion Music has a similar customer base for NOTION 3, which with a bit of simple arithmetic suggests that the gross sales for NOTION 3 are in the range of $2,000,000 (two million dollars), which basically is enough money to pay for a few software engineers for a few years when you include building, computer, and other expenses . . .

I also think that one could spend $2,000,000 on porting NOTION 3 to full 64-bit mode for Mac OS X only and not have enough in the budget for a weekly pizza party . . .

But yet another reality is that if I were good with financial stuff, I would be a billionaire, so this is just a bit of guessing . . .

However, with more so-called "baby boomers" retiring, I think that the market for NOTION and all the other stuff needed for a complete system has great potential for rapid expansion, if only because there are a lot of folks who would love to be able to their versions of Beatles songs and have more than sufficient funds to buy high-end Apple computers and lots of other stuff, plus once they retire, they soon become bored silly and yearn for something FUN to do, such as for example writing silly songs about ladies underpants . . .

"(I Want) Angela Gossow's Underpants (Ya-Ya-Ya)" (The Surf Whammys) -- YouTube music video

The current focus at Notion Music and IK Multimedia is on younger folks who have an attention span of perhaps 5 seconds and are easily entertained with blinking lights and sparkly noises, which is fine with me so long as it extracts millions of $9.95 purchases from their iPhone and iPad accounts . . .

I think there will be a 64-bit version of NOTION sooner or later, and it might be this year, but Digital Performer continues to be a 32-bit application, and the MOTU folks have been doing Apple application development since the beginning of time, so who knows when anything will happen, really . . .

Really!

P. S. Yet another reality is that for the most part there are only two groups that consistently have 64-bit digital music production applications for the Mac: (a) Apple and (b) Germans . . .

[srenmp]

Hey Reuben, your not giving enough information for a straight answer but I have 6 gigs of ram on my pc and can run a full woodwind, brass, and about three string sections if Vsl on my ASus laptop. I have eight gigs on my 2011 Mac book pro and it runs the exact same setup . Plus a few kontakt instruments for me Vienna ensemble runs in 64 bit mode so you don't even have to use pro to get past 4 gigs in notion. It's why I switched from ewqlso to Vienna . However I can run a full orchestra when I use both laptops with pro running strings and woodwinds on my Mac and brass and percussion on my pc it works out pretty well the pieces are about a half hour to a hour long. I recommend only using notion sounds when edifying or composing and use Vienna when your mastering and recording. For faster results.

[Rubens]

Hi guys,

thank you again.

Unfortunately there is a small misunderstanding... My macbook pro 2.4 core 2 duo, as mentioned before, is 2007! It only supported then 4 gb ram, but with a special memory I bought I could made it accept and recognize the 6 gb ram.
I am able to use a few VSL instruments but not in a large file like orchestral template. Also, if someone could help me step by step to try VE Pro with the Notion VE Pro templates I will appreciate very much. I don't have a slave computer so I think the setup is easier...
Yes, this piece I mentioned is about 1h:30min... I will try to separate in 2... That in enough no?

Thank you,

Rubens.

[wcreed51]

The Notion VSL templates are for the VSL Special Edition only. Is that what you're using?

[Rubens]

Humm... I have the download instruments as well, and I thought I could manage from the template and then change to the downloaded... Can't I or is it another better way to do it? Maybe to build my own template from scratch?

Thank you!

[Rubens]

Hi Just to say that I figure out how to make my own template with VE PRO. Anyway it seems that my computer is slow to handle... But it is nice to know that the new macbook pro could do the job.

Thank you all,

Rubens.