NOTION Music Forum

I have some problems to enable certain instruments and effects.

For instance, I cannot enable:
-Dynamite Cowbell
-Sound Delay (from Voxengo)
-CelloFan
-HarmoniqEQ

I click on 'ENABLE' on the VST manager but their status don't change, they are still 'Not enabled'.
Any clue on this? I really need to use the Voxengo Sound Delay to line up some instruments.

elerouxx wrote:I have some problems to enable certain instruments and effects.

For instance, I cannot enable:
-Dynamite Cowbell
-Sound Delay (from Voxengo)
-CelloFan
-HarmoniqEQ

I click on 'ENABLE' on the VST manager but their status don't change, they are still 'Not enabled'.
Any clue on this? I really need to use the Voxengo Sound Delay to line up some instruments.

I tried to get Voxengo Sound Delay to work on my Mac Pro (OS X 10.6.8), but it does not work in NOTION 3 and Digital Performer 7.24 (MOTU), so there is something wrong with the VST . . .

You might try contacting Voxengo technical support . . .

"Give me more of that cowbell!"

Maybe an incompatibility with the operating system.

I tried a few more experiments, but none of them made any difference . . .

When I did a "Get Info" on some of the VST plug-ins that work, I noticed that the Administrator and other accounts all had "Read and Write" permissions, but as installed the Voxengo VST plug-in only had "Read and Write" permission for the Administrator account, with the other accounts have only "Read" permissions, so I changed the other account permissions to "Read and Write", but this made no difference . . .

Also, I moved the Voxengo VST plug-in from the "VST" subfolder to the "VST3" subfolder, but this also made no difference, so there must be something about the Voxengo VST plug-in that is non-standard . . .

Digital Performer 7.24 (MOTU) does a full scan of all the VST plug-ins on start-up, and it always recognizes when a new VST plug-in has been installed, but it did not recognize the Voxengo VST plug-in . . .

The difference in the way Digital Performer 7.24 handles new VST plug-ins is that it first does a scanning and verifying step to ensure that the new VST plug-in has all the things that a VST plug-in is supposed to have, and if the new VST plug-in passes the scanning and verifying step, Digital Performer 7.24 then enables the VST plug-in and makes it available . . .

NOTION 3 does it a different way, but as best as I can determine part of the "Enable" step in NOTION 3 does the same or similar type of VST plug-in scanning and verifying step, which for the Voxengo plug-in fails but without NOTION 3 producing a warning or error message to provide a clue regarding whatever the problem with the VST plug-in might be . . .

So, I think that DIgital Performer 7.24 and NOTION 3 are doing essentially the same thing but in different ways, and neither of them recognizes the Voxengo plug-in as being a valid VST plug-in, hence something is wrong . . .

I agree with fabiolcati that it could be a matter of the Voxengo plug-in using a function or something from an earlier version of Mac OS X that since then has been replaced with a newer API (application programming interface) function or procedure, which in the grand scheme of everything is quite probable, since Apple tends to be a bit aggressive about replacing API functions and Foundation Classes as Mac OS X evolves, with Mac OS X Lion being a recent example of changes that require applications to be revisited and updated . . .

I am not running Mac OS X Lion for this reason, since some of the digital music production software I use continues not be fully compatible with Mac OS X Lion, and at present there is no particular added value to upgrading from Mac OS X Snow Leopard (10.6.8), since all the digital music production applications I use are working very nicely and quite reliably . . .

FUNCTIONALITY OPTIONS

The Voxengo plug-in has a very specific functionality that is focused on adding time delays to instruments, and I am not certain whether there is an exact replacement for this functionality, at least in the free VST plug-in arena, but I think that one of the Lexicon VST plug-ins done by Professional Sound Products might provide this functionality, but each Lexicon VST plug-in costs $149 (US), so it is best to try them first with the demo version . . .

Lexicon VST plug-ins (Professional Sound Products)

TECHNICAL SUPPORT

I was able to download and install the AU plug-in version of Voxengo Sound Delay, and it works nicely in Digital Performer 7.24 (MOTU), so I joined the Voxengo FORUM and posted a technical support request to get more information about the VST plug-in version for the Mac . . .

QUESTION: Can you provide some help on how to get the Sound Delay VST plug-in to work or provide an updated version of the Sound Delay VST plug-in on the Mac?

DETAILS:

I am trying to help a NOTION 3 (Notion Music) user who wants to use your Sound Delay VST plug-on on the Mac, and the problem is that NOTION 3 and Digital Performer 7.24 (MOTU) do not recognize the Sound Delay VST plug-in . . .

I tried it on my 2.8-GHz 8-core Mac Pro running Mac OS X 10.6.8 (Snow Leopard), and the Sound Delay VST plug-in will not work . . .

However, the Sound Delay AU plug-in works with Digital Performer 7.24, and I did some tests with it on a grand piano and like what it does . . .

It is an interesting concept, and I am intrigued by it . . .

Thanks for your help!

Surfwhammy

If I have more information, I will let you know . . .

P. S. I did a very quick test on a grand piano track in Digital Performer 7.24 using the Voxengo Sound Delay AU plug-in version, and it definitely does something interesting, so as noted in the technical support request I am intrigued by it . . .

It is different from what most folks call "reverberation" and "echo", and as best as I can determine at present it makes it possible to do very simple delay of the original sound but without adding the delayed original sound to the original sound, which from my perspective is a vastly intriguing concept that is very different from what traditional reverberation and echo effects do . . .

In other words, if the Voxengo Sound Delay effect works the way I currently think it works, then for example I can set it so that a grand piano track is 25 milliseconds "behind" the rest of the tracks, which is not a matter of reverberation or echo. Instead it is making microscopic adjustments to the overall timeline or whatever one wants to call it, and it is more of a timing adjustment than a reverberation, echo, chorus, or phasing effect, which is what makes it vastly intriguing, since I like to have a bit of FUN with adjusting and moving sounds . . .

Curiously, this fits with one of the songs I am studying at present, "Maybe" (The Shangra-Las), which was produced by Shadow Morton . . .

"Maybe" (The Shangra-Las) -- YouTube music video

The background on this song is fascinating, and the lead singer (Mary Weiss) was 15 years-old at the time the recording was done . . .

The timing of the instruments and the lead vocals is mind-boggling, because there are two different timelines, and the lead vocal has classic Country Western nasal tone and retardando . . .

[NOTE: Loretta Lynn did this vocal technique, as did Patsy Cline, but Tammy Wynette pushed it to the edge. However, Patsy Cline developed the technique first, and it is likely that Loretta Lynn and Tammy Wynette learned it from her records, since Patsy Cline mentored Loretta Lynn. And they all might have learned the technique from other singers, since it is a traditional singing style, but these three ladies refined it and made it obvious . . . ]

"Before I'm Over You" (Loretta Lynn) -- YouTube music video

"Crazy" (Patsy Cline) -- YouTube music video

"Stand By Your Man" (Tammy Wynette) -- YouTube music video

Another truly amazing aspect of this song, which I did not recognize in an immediately conscious way until I listened to the song for perhaps 10 to 20 hours over and over is that there is a tape splicing edit on the vocal track, where the word "and" is combined with what I think is a lead guitar string bend and then spliced into the song, which considering that this was done in the 1960s most likely was a literal tape splice, although I have no idea how it was done . . .

The "and" happens at 0:19, 0:58, and 2:06 in the YouTube music video, and I am reasonably certain that it is a splice, although it could be a combination of the way the reverberation unit worked and the way Mary Weiss started singing a phrase, which might be a type of voiced glottal fricative, which is something that Elvis Presley did every once on a while . . .

I am not certain what the technical name of the singing technique is, but the general idea is that you prestart the word with a glissandi and then rapidly accelerate it so that it pops to full volume instantly, and this appears in a lot of Country Western songs. It is similar to a hiccup or perhaps a yodel, and it works wonderfully when it is done correctly, but in this instance I think that it was done with a tape splice and a bit of help from an electric guitar doing a string bend, as well as a bit of reverberation . . .

Lots of FUN!

As a bit of follow-up, I got a reply to the technical support question about VST compatibility on the Mac, and the current perspective is that the AU version works, hence the solution is to use the AU version . . .

I suggested that it probably makes sense to get the VST plug-ins working correctly on the Mac in future versions, but for now I think the solution is to use a DAW application that supports AU plug-ins . . .

One might suppose that a future version of NOTION could support AU plug-ins, but I do not see a lot of added value in adding AU plug-in support, since VST plug-ins work nicely in NOTION 3, and there are better uses of Notion Music developer resources than trying to be compatible with everything at a time when VST plug-ins get the job done . . .

STRATEGY

As explained in more detail in the "Notion 3, DISCO Songs, and Sparkles" topic in this FORUM (see link in my previous post), I only use NOTION 3 for music notation and generating audio that I record in Digital Performer 7.24 as soundbites via ReWire, and for this reason, as well as the overall 32-bit application workspace limitation, I do all the effects work in Digital Performer 7.24 on the soundbites that I record from NOTION 3 via ReWire . . .

It is useful for NOTION 3 to have a Mixer, since one of the primary aspects of NOTION 3 is being able to hear the VSTi instruments play the music notation, but my perspective is that I have Digital Performer 7.24 (and might sometime in the future get Logic Studio [Apple]), so I really do not need an advanced Mixer in NOTION, other than whatever is required to do ReWire and so forth . . .

On the other hand the NOTION 3 Mixer has a very nice overall "sound" or whatever one wants to call it, and this is intriguing, since it is easier to get a good sounding mix with the NOTION 3 Mixer, where this is more of a thing like the difference in the way a Gibson Les Paul guitar "sounds" as compared to a Fender Stratocaster guitar . . .

The Voxengo Sound Delay plug-in works nicely in Digital Performer 7.24 as an AU plug-in, so this is the obvious workaround, and from my perspective the key to being productive is to find a workaround when one encounters a problem . . .

At some point, it is like the thing with electric guitars, where you need what I call a "good" electric guitar, and a Gibson Les Paul Standard or a Fender American Deluxe Stratocaster is a "good" guitar, which put the price in the range of $1,500 to $2,500 (US) . . .

You can get a less expensive guitar, and it might be nice, but it is unlikely to be "good" in every respect, because the fact of the matter is that some stuff simply costs more to design and build . . .

It might appear to look the same, but when you study everything in detail, there are differences in such things as wood, metal, and so forth, which is where the "good" aspect comes into play . . .

The is all the more important when the guitar has a tremolo system (a.k.a. "whammy"), because doing a lot of whammying puts incredible stress on a guitar, and this requires higher quality wood and metal components . . .

And something similar happens when you do a lot of string bending, which again puts intense stress on the bridge, neck, headstock, and tuning pegs (or "tuners") . . .

From a different perspective, it is a matter of (a) whether the guitar can be tuned and (b) how long the guitar will stay in tune, which for a "good" guitar will be the length of the longest song you need to play and with a bit of adjusting and fine-tuning can be as long as 10 to 20 minutes if you do a lot of string bending and whammying, which I do . . .

One can believe that this should be possible to do with an "OK" or "nice" electric guitar, but all the little and perhaps subtle things make a big difference, where for example using a softer and less expensive metal for the gears of a tuning peg can make it impossible to keep a guitar tuned when you do string bending and whammying . . .

This applies to all instruments, and at some point when one is playing piano it becomes obvious that a Steinway grand piano is a "good" piano, and if you expect to become proficient in playing piano, it probably is easier when you have a Steinway grand piano, even though they are a bit on the expensive side . . .

And the same thing happens with DAW applications, where at some point the reality is that on the Mac you need to get Digital Performer or Logic Studio, and there are reasons to get Logic Studio rather than Digital Performer, although some of the reasons are a bit subtle, where one reason is the way Digital Performer does so-called "panning" controls for stereo tracks, in which case the so-called "panning" control actually is a balance control, which is not the same as a panning control, at all . . .

For reference, the panning controls in the NOTION 3 Mixer are panning controls rather than balance controls, which is done by the movable "dots", and the panning control in Logic Studio also is a true panning control, since they have an extra set of functionality that is comparable to the "dots" in the NOTION 3 Mixer panning controls, which for me is very important and probably will map to switching to Logic Studio . . .

With a balance control, you can adjust the relative volume of the "left" and "right" sides of a stereo track, but you cannot move the "left" side to the right, and vice-versa, which is what a panning control does, and this is what makes having true panning controls so important when you need to move things spatially, which is fabulous . . .

Fabulous!

Thank you very much for your so detailed help, Surfwhammy. I was going to write the Voxengo guys but you already did!

Too bad they have no intention to fix their VST plug-in. They have other plugins that work, theirselves - and I am using one of these plugins as a rough replacement.

My purpose is far more simple that you imagine, but not less important - Sound Delay allows me to line up instruments from different sources and that have slightly different latencies. Or, in the case of Synful Orchestra, delay all other instruments a whole second , ecase Synful has this DFE - delay for expression- feature, that allows the instrument to analyze the data for 1 second before playing, so they can interpret better.

Sound Delay allows this cleanly, without any echo effect (which any "delay" effect is known to create), and with more than millisecond precision.

I am using Tempo Delay, also from Voxengo. which has not such precision and I have to tweak down all feedback knobs and all wet to avoid the 'effect'. Still, it does the job for the time being.

elerouxx wrote:Thank you very much for your so detailed help, Surfwhammy. I was going to write the Voxengo guys but you already did!

Glad to help, even though it did not solve the problem . . .

I got a reply within 24 hours to my technical support question, and I then replied with a bit more information, including the suggestion that a future version of Venego Sound Delay could benefit from the VST working on the Mac for all applications that support the VST standard, so there might be something in the future . . .

As noted the AU version of Venego Sound Delay works nicely in Digital Performer 7.24, and it does something both simple and complex, which from my perspective makes it a very intriguing effects plug-in, and I mentioned this in my second reply to the Venego folks (which actually was the fellow who designs and programs the plug-ins) . . .

There might be another digital delay plug-in that does the same thing, but if there is I have not been able to find this specific functionality listed as a feature or whatever . . .

However, I think that there should be a way to adapt a digital delay to do some of what Sound Delay does . . .

I can change the timing of a soundbite in Digital Performer by moving it on the timeline, but I like the idea of being able to do it with an effects plug-in, and doing it with an effects plug-in provides more control over how much the instrument is delayed, although it does not address the issue of moving an instrument forward along the timeline . . .

One of my hypotheses about hit songs is that there probably is some type of hardware or software that is used to partition instruments so that they are heard in very specific "compartments" or "time slices" in such a way that there is not so much overlap, which add clarity and reduces the overall volume but keeps the perceived loudness the same or higher, and delaying an instrument by a tiny amount looks to be a great way to improve clarity . . .

I need to do some experiments with the AU version of Voxengo Sound Delay in Digital Performer 7.24, but my thinking is that, for example, it might work nicely as a tool for enhancing the clarity and crispness of a rhythm guitar part, so that chord strums that normally would coincide with a snare drum rimshot will be delayed by perhaps 10 to 25 milliseconds (or more if it sounds good) . . .

When I play lead guitar solos, sometimes I play a little bit ahead of the rhythm section, which adds a bit of emotional tension to the notes, and this works nicely . . .

Another possibility is to keep the rhythm guitar chord strums on beat but to delay the snare drum rimshots by a tiny amount . . .

It is an intriguing effect, and it would be nice if it worked as a VST in NOTION 3, but at least it works as an AU plug-in in Digital Performer 7.24, and it also should work in Logic Studio . . .

Lots of FUN . . .

P. S. If I get more information from Voxengo, I will post it . . .