NOTION Music Forum

I am looking to expand the sound set available in Notion and am hoping to gather some information from other users who are working with the GPO sample set. In short, can someone tell me just how tightly it is supported by Notion? If I invest in GPO, what shall I expect to be either non-functional for playback, or requiring post-graduate work in custom rule writing?

Your input is appreciated.

Best wishes,
Thorrild

Just to give you fair warning, I ramble a little bit in this response.

The default rules, in my opinion, fall a little bit short. I have uploaded my own rules and instrument default files to the forum that better utilize GPO's legato features as well as a few other less common techniques. I actually have update my rules slightly (and have a few more ideas), so I'll post an update in the not too distant future (as time allows). The rules in their current form can be found here: viewtopic.php?f=24&t=1285

In terms of the sound quality of GPO vs. Notion:

1. I think that GPO's strings (apart from the harps) are the weakest part of the library (the harps sound great; I think I read somewhere that Gary Garritan was or is a harpist, but I'm not sure). Notion's strings (especially with the expansion sounds) go a lot further than GPO. I still use GPO, but I like to layer the solo and section sounds underneath Notion in the mix (to give the strings a little more depth).

2. I think GPO's woodwinds are some of the best sounding woodwind samples out there, and I tend to use them first and foremost. Most GPO woodwinds have multiple solo woodwind and brass files, so layering these sounds between woodwinds pairs usually gives the most cohesive sound. You can certainly combine these with Notion's woodwinds with good results, but I just like GPO's woodwinds (this, I think, is completely subjective).

3. I think GPO's brass is pretty good; however, it takes a bit of experimentation and practice. The best results come from mixing the GPO solo brass patches with the GPO overlay patches. I tend to layer these with each part (that is, I assign an overlay part in the same Aria instance and give it the same MIDI channel as the solo patch). This works pretty well; however, there are certain expressions that work better if you utilize the overlay patches via a sequencer staff separate from the notated part; this is beneficial because you can manipulate the sequencer staff separately and uniquely compared to the main instrument staff (let me know if that makes sense; it can be a weird concept/technique to learn at the beginning).

4. The rules method/syntax employed by Notion don't really support GPO's percussion. I can use GPO's snare and bass drum as well as the melodic percussion without a problem, but GPO includes a cymbals patch, a general percussion patch, etc. These patches have multiple instruments and different keyswitches to trigger various techniques which are all grouped together (this will make sense as soon as you try loading these instruments in Aria). GPO is designed this way so that you can play multiple instruments live from one patch; however, because Notion only has one instrument-ID for the patch, you can't isolate one cymbals rules from another. Therefore, it's impractical, if not impossible, to fine tune the playback of these instruments via the current rules system (especially for techniques like unmeasured tremolo, alternating hits, etc), so I usually stick with Notion's percussion. Notion's percussion sound pretty good and there's not need for rules tinkering.

On the whole, I think blending the two libraries together has a very nice sound. Garritan products emphasize the technique of ensemble building (using different samples from the Garritan libraries [each with different characteristics] to form a more realistic sound). I think mixing various libraries together is the logical next step in ensemble building and, fortunately, Notion makes this process very easy to set up and adjust.

Does that help?

be sure to download pcartwrite's excellent custom ruleset for GPO, he did a great job on these and quite a few folks have even used what he posted as a prime example to learn from and create our own rulesets for other libs in similar fashion. Highly recommended...
http://forum.notionmusic.com/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=1285

Thank you so much, pcartwright, for your valuable insight, and thanks also to you, dgriffee, for your ringing endorsement of pcartwright's custom rule set [which, apparently, he/she is too modest to praise properly!].

How sad, pcartwright, that you like GPO's string sound the least: The strings are my primary reason for sniffing around the various third-party options. For standard orchestral sound using only Notion, I almost always end up using the muted section sound, but that can't be a long-term solution. Besides, the Notion solo strings are really not very close to what I like to hear. I was actually impressed by the samples posted on the GPO web site, but a marketing snippet is not the same as everyday work. Still, it sounds like a good place to park some cash. The price is certainly more attractive than the other Notion-supported libraries!

I need to add that if Garritan releases an advanced string library (something that's been rumored for a while now), then you can implement those patches fairly seamlessly into Notion's rule set. A lot of the Garritan community are sitting and patiently waiting for an updated strings library from Garritan, so the lack of string techniques/flexibility may be corrected by a new library at some point. I'll probably be the first to jump on that library (I'll certainly provide a rule set that includes these patches).

Also, I noticed a glitch in some of the articulation playback after the most recent update. I may have to review and adjust my rule set to make it function properly with Notion. That is to say, I'm aware of a few issues with my rule set and the most recent version of Notion and will try to correct it this weekend.

Finally, thanks for the kind words. It's always encouraging to hear that people use and/or learn from my rule writing attempts.

I guess this is actually a direct question to pcartwright, but since there may be other users out there who are as ignorant as I about VST libraries, I am posting it here, with apologies to pcartwright:

I am now the somewhat happier owner of GPO, busily finding out how its instruments can complement Notion's sound set. I have also downloaded and installed the latest version of pcartwright's custom rules for it, but after I did that, some sounds are acting up. For instance, a Bass Trombone staff will honk out a pedal low C the minute I start playing it, and that low C doesn't quit until I close the file (or hit the appropriate key on my MIDI keyboard). The same happens with a Doublebass staff. Other instruments play as intended, so far. Is there some sort of keyswitch that I can't see in the score?

To make me even more confused, none of the above happens if I create a new file and enter some test notes using one of the problem instrument sounds.

I am also finding that files created before I installed pcartwright's GPO rules don't respond to things like pizz. and arco. But as above, if I create a new file and enter some pizz./arco test music, all is well.

Pasting the "old" music into a freshly created file doesn't solve any of these problems. Are they somehow hardwired to the entries I originally made?

Best wishes,
Thorrild

thorrild wrote:a Bass Trombone staff will honk out a pedal low C the minute I start playing it, and that low C doesn't quit until I close the file (or hit the appropriate key on my MIDI keyboard). The same happens with a Doublebass staff. Other instruments play as intended, so far. Is there some sort of keyswitch that I can't see in the score?

I noticed this occasionally with horn parts, but the trend was not limited to one note nor did it happen every time (it happened randomly and rarely). I have not seen this behavior with the bass trombone or double bass. Is it only happening on a low C? Does it happen all the time?

thorrild wrote:To make me even more confused, none of the above happens if I create a new file and enter some test notes using one of the problem instrument sounds.

I am also finding that files created before I installed pcartwright's GPO rules don't respond to things like pizz. and arco. But as above, if I create a new file and enter some pizz./arco test music, all is well.

Yes, I'm aware of this. I have found that I need to "reload" GPO parts in the file I'm using. If I need to refresh a file for an additional rule (in your case, incorporate rules into a preexisting file), I go to the staff settings, change the instrument to the Notion version (i.e. change the GPO flute to the Notion flute, click "OK" to make the changes, go back to staff settings, and change the instrument back to GPO (i.e. change from Notion flute back to the GPO flute). This should activate the Notion instrument and Notion's rules concerning that instrument (thus wiping GPOs rules from whatever memory is being used). Changing it back to GPO reloads the GPO instrument and the new rules. Obviously, this is a tedious process, but it's the only solution I've found that works to correct this problem.

thorrild wrote:Pasting the "old" music into a freshly created file doesn't solve any of these problems. Are they somehow hardwired to the entries I originally made?

I really couldn't tell you what's going on there. This probably has something to do with Notion's underlying behavior and not the rule file, but I just don't know.

Thanks, as always, pcartwright, for your help and insight. It is much appreciated.

pcartwright wrote:thorrild wrote:
a Bass Trombone staff will honk out a pedal low C the minute I start playing it, and that low C doesn't quit until I close the file (or hit the appropriate key on my MIDI keyboard). The same happens with a Doublebass staff. Other instruments play as intended, so far. Is there some sort of keyswitch that I can't see in the score?


I noticed this occasionally with horn parts, but the trend was not limited to one note nor did it happen every time (it happened randomly and rarely). I have not seen this behavior with the bass trombone or double bass. Is it only happening on a low C? Does it happen all the time?

Yes, this happens consistently, and always on a low C. The note starts whenever I begin playback, no matter if it's the beginning of the file or somewhere in the middle. Actually, I should be writing in the past tense: When I did the sound file switcharoo you suggested, the problem went away. Another problem in the same file was solved the same way: A trumpet part would hold certain notes in one particular spot every time I played it, but this time the held pitches were actually written in the staff (only not held, of course).

pcartwright wrote:thorrild wrote:
To make me even more confused, none of the above happens if I create a new file and enter some test notes using one of the problem instrument sounds.

I am also finding that files created before I installed pcartwright's GPO rules don't respond to things like pizz. and arco. But as above, if I create a new file and enter some pizz./arco test music, all is well.


Yes, I'm aware of this. I have found that I need to "reload" GPO parts in the file I'm using. If I need to refresh a file for an additional rule (in your case, incorporate rules into a preexisting file), I go to the staff settings, change the instrument to the Notion version (i.e. change the GPO flute to the Notion flute, click "OK" to make the changes, go back to staff settings, and change the instrument back to GPO (i.e. change from Notion flute back to the GPO flute). This should activate the Notion instrument and Notion's rules concerning that instrument (thus wiping GPOs rules from whatever memory is being used). Changing it back to GPO reloads the GPO instrument and the new rules. Obviously, this is a tedious process, but it's the only solution I've found that works to correct this problem.

In my problem file, I am unable to get pizzicati to play no matter how many times I reload the parts. It affects all string section sounds.

Anyway, I'll keep plugging away on this and let you know if I find out anything useful.

Best wishes,
Thorrild

thorrild wrote:In my problem file, I am unable to get pizzicati to play no matter how many times I reload the parts. It affects all string section sounds.

Two questions:

1. Do you get any sort of playback when you mark a section as pizz, or is the pizz part silent?
2. Did you paste the GPO template files included in the custom folder to the PluginData>GPO folder?

Two answers:

1. Playback acts as if there were no pizz. marking in the score. Notes are played arco.
2. I believe I followed the instructions to the letter. Your downloaded folder (version 3) named GPO contains 66 items, 2 of which are a folder named Rules and the file it contains, named GPO_Aria.prules. I put the downloaded GPO folder in the PluginData folder after I had moved the default GPO folder to a backup location.

By the way, switched put the default GPO folder back into the PluginData folder (after removing the modified GPO folder), opened my test file, and had the pizz. markings recognized as expected.

Best,
T