Rewire issues with Notion

[colombod]

Just sent the email, also built a new session with pro tools, and guess what, still exactly the same problem ... this is getting really frustrating for me.

[Brian]

Thanks for sending me the email. For the time being, lets work off the email and then we can post our results on here.

[Surfwhammy]

. . . by the way, the worst happens after more than a minute, around bar 39 all is unacceptable.

I like the "Shell" piece, and I did a loudspeaker mix with the T-RackS 3 Deluxe "Gentle Sweetening 2" mastering suite using the perceived loudness guidelines for "Classical" music, which maps to a lower overall volume level . . .

"Shell" -- Surfwhammy REV 2 -- Classical perceived loudness guidelines -- MP3 (4.7MB, 268-kbps [VBR], approximately 2 minutes and 25 seconds)

QUESTION: Are the timing and tempo correct?

The reason I ask is that the parts where there are expressive tempo changes sound nice to me, and I think it adds emotive feeling to the piece. The other mix I did was done with perceived loudness guidelines for "Rock", so it was considerably hotter and louder, which is what I prefer . . .

For reference, I did not change the "Shell.notion" score, other than (a) to add four empty measures at the start, which makes Digital Performer 7.24 happy when it is the ReWire host controller, and (b) to peg all the volume sliders at 0dB . . .

Once the audio was recorded in Digital Performer 7.24 as soundbites, I used various VST signal processors; added a bit of reverberation to a few instruments; and did some panning . . .

Thanks!

P. S. The more I listen to "Shell", the more I like it, which is one of the reasons I am enjoying doing experimental mixes. I played string bass for several years when I was younger, but I switched to electric bass when I was in junior high school, which was around the time I started playing in nightclubs five nights a week (mostly Jazz, Big Band, and popular songs from the 1930s [Count Basie, Irving Berlin, George and Ira Gershwin, Cole Porter, and so forth], which was interesting), so I like strong bass lines, which is another reason I like this piece, for sure . . .

For sure!

[colombod]

That would be the final shell http://soundcloud.com/colombod/shell, hope you like the final idea

Feel free to use it and remix it as much as you like, just let me know your final results, would be happy to hear them!

That is also why i need rewire to work correctly ... before I switch to sibellius

[colombod]

People at Notion .. I would be happy enough if notion could bounce all the separate output at once without me having to solo and bounce every element .. that is what I am doing due to the rewire problems.

[colombod]

Listening to your shell version you have my problem at bar 40!!! Unless you are doing tempo changes it is speeding up at bar 40 which is exactly my problem!

[Surfwhammy]

Listening to your shell version you have my problem at bar 40!!! Unless you are doing tempo changes it is speeding up at bar 40 which is exactly my problem!

I like the accelerando and ritardando bits, so I think it is pretty cool, but if it is not supposed to happen, then there probably is a way to correct it . . .

My first intuitive guess is that the problem is caused by the "Vlolins I" part, which as best as I can determine has two or more polyphonic or multivoice parts. Additionally, the Miroslav Philharmonik instance has a COMBI with a lot of parts, although it appears that only 1 and 6 are used when the staccato starts at bar 39 . . .

OBSERVATION

When I first started using Notion 3, all I had was Miroslav Philharmonik, and this was the first time I had done anything with virtual instruments. It also was the first time in approximately half a century that I did anything with music notation, so all I remembered about music notation was how to sight-sing treble clef melodies, which I learned as a child when I was in a liturgical boys choir . . .

So, I used the Notion 3 predefined templates and instrument sections for Miroslav Philharmonik, which in some respects worked nicely but not really . . .

At the time, I had not discovered SampleTank, and I did not know that Miroslav Philharmonik and all the other IK Multimedia virtual instruments have standalone user interfaces, so I used the standard default stuff that Notion 3 provides . . .

However, once I got up to speed on the IK Multimedia virtual instruments and learned more about Notion 3, it became obvious that using the predefined templates and instrument sections was not a good idea for several very important reasons, one of which is that while the predefined templates and instrument sections are convenient, they also have a bunch of stuff that probably is not needed, which is important because when you use primarily "heavy" VSTi instruments, which basically is all the IK Multimedia virtual instruments, the reality on the Mac is that the upper limit is 50 instruments (total), but problems start happening when there are more than 25 "heavy" VSTi instruments . . .

This is not the fault of the IK Multimedia virtual instruments or Notion 3, per se. Instead, it is the consequence of everything being 32-bits and the limitations this imposes . . .

I did a lot of experiments over six months or so, and eventually I discovered a stellar set of rules, one of which is that when I need an instrument, I add it myself and select the appropriate VSTi instrument in the Notion 3 Setup view . . .

For example, if I need a Miroslav Philharmonik flute, then I switch to Notion 3 Setup view and create a new instrument first by clicking on "VST Instruments", which puts a set of buttons in the upper section, one for each IK Multimedia virtual instrument, and then I click on the specific IK Multimedia virtual instrument, which in this example is "Miroslav Philharmonik" . . .

This causes the Miroslav Philharmonik standalone user interface to launch, and it appears in a few seconds, at which time I select the specific instrument from the list provided in the Miroslav Philharmonik standalone user interface, which in this example is a flute . . .

When this is done, I close the Miroslav Philharmonik standalone user interface by clicking on the "red dot", and then I rename the new instrument to "Flute" or whatever . . .

This way, the instrument has only a few parts, often just a single part, rather than a predefined COMBI . . .

Explained another way, I do everything in the most simple possible way, even if it requires more user interface work on my part, and I do in part because the reality in the software programming universe is that software engineers inevitably simply cannot avoid tinkering with things, so they have a bit of free time and start tinkering, which eventually causes a "bug", and then they debug the "bug" they created, which tends to map to checking all the simple stuff first to ensure that it is working correctly, which in turn maps to the simple stuff being the most tested and perfected parts of software . . .

SUGGESTION

(1) Separate the "Violins I" instrument into at least two separate instruments, one doing the sustains and the other doing the staccato, and do it using the VSTi Instrument method I described (see above) . . .

(2) Only use the specific instrument articulations that are required. If it is not used, then do not add it to the parts list in the IK Multimedia virtual instrument standalone user interface . . .

COMMENTS

If the problem is caused by what is happening in the multivoice "Violins I" section, then it is not a ReWire problem, per se. Instead it is a processing and sequencing problem caused by all the stuff that happens in the background, which could be something Notion 3 is doing but just as easily could be something that Miroslav Philharmonik is doing, and in this instance I think it is the rapid switching back and forth among the voices or parts that is causing the problem, but at present, this is just a guess . . .

The problem occurs when "Violins I" starts doing the alternating sustaining and staccato, and I do not think this is just an odd coincidence. Instead, I think that it is a strong clue . . .

I will do some experiments, since I already wanted to split the "Violins I" section so that I can get a separate track for the staccato violins, which makes it easier to manage it when I am focused on producing and mixing in Digital Performer 7.24, since I am inclined (a) to make the staccato crisper and more constrained and (b) to put the staccato violins in a different panning location from the sustained strings . . .

Lots of FUN!

[colombod]

I do believe is a Notion problem!
If I bounce it everything is fine and I assume that playback should behave as bounce! The strategy you suggest is equivalent to scrap notion away and just use notation editor in Logic itself . Can do it, and it is going to be next step for me since notion is just adding overhead to my workflow. Another solution would be to switch over Sibelius and use the score to drive any playback instrument (Kontakt/miroslav/sampletank/sample moog) freely and rewire them.

I was expecting a little bit more, and more important : solutions no work around or blaming components that on the product page are exposed as feature of the software, but it actually have some trouble coupling with.

I think I invested already enough time to work around an issues because the lack of feature like the "bounce to separate files" which is pretty simple. As you says talking about computer science background, I am a computer scientist with few years of experience in realtime software and robotics systems. Pretty sure that if they have a bounce feature having a bounce ot separate tracks is pretty trivial to implement, one year later I am still here doing work around instead of using that time to compose more tracks. I use notion really infrequently and in a couple of days I am going for the total and external banishment from my system. Is a paid software, not an opensource or free app, was expecting more and should have tested it more extensively .. but I am a compulsory buyer

[Surfwhammy]

If I bounce it everything is fine and I assume that playback should behave as bounce!

This is a possibility, but my perspective is that "bounce to disk" is a separate activity, although it probably shares common algorithms with the real-time player and so forth . . .

The difference is that "bounce to disk" does not have the real-time processing constraints, so it can take more time to render the audio without causing problems . . .

I am curious about the multivoice violins, so I will do an experiment later this evening where I split the multivoice part into separate instrument tracks in Notion 3 and use the Miroslav Philharmonik VST instrument directly rather than via the predefined Notion 3 templates and instrument sections, which should be easy to do if there is a way to select all the notes for a single voice, which might be the case, although perhaps not . . .

Another way to do it is to move the staccato violins to a new instrument, which should be easier to do . . .

I will post the results once I have done some experiments!

Regarding the "bounce tracks to separate files" idea, I agree that this should not be difficult to do in program code . . .

There also should be a single button to clear all the "solo" buttons, and I like the idea of being able to save a set of "solo" buttons and then to select it as a preset from a list, where for example it makes sense to have a user-defined preset that "solos" the drumkit and other combinations of instruments and vocals . . .

I spend a lot of time clicking and unclicking "solo" buttons when I am mixing, and having preset combinations would make this much easier, for sure . . .

For sure!

[pcartwright]

Tell me this, have you tried to write tempo or time signatures changes in any of your songs/pieces? Try it and let us know if Notion behaves as expected.

Surfwhammy,

Have you tried to do this yet? What were your results with digital performer?