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What happened to Notion?

A Forum to Discuss NOTION

Re: What happened to Notion?

Postby sepheritoh » Wed May 25, 2011 3:33 pm

wcreed51 wrote:I don’t think many composers have worked next to a mountain stream...

But, you can already do that with a tablet PC and the full version of Notion3.


I've seen many people refering to the windowas tablet PCs. I have searched everywhere, but was unable to find one. I assume you have one. Would you please tell us more about which model and how it worls for you.
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Re: What happened to Notion?

Postby wcreed51 » Wed May 25, 2011 9:03 pm

It’s not “the” tablet, it “a” tablet; every manufacture produces them. Just google “tablet PC”

My company uses units from Motion Computing for data collection in the field. I’ve fiddled around a bit with Notion and Finale, but it’s not something I would use day to day.

Bill
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Re: What happened to Notion?

Postby dshertz » Tue May 31, 2011 5:59 am

I can't say that I am encouraged by reports of the developers focusing on iThingys. I realize it's the hot market and the new customers.

As I see it, there are still fundamental problems with NOTION (like the hairpins and dynamic marking producing odd CC11 patterns). This does not mean that, overall I am displeased with the product and certainly customer service has been as helpful as humanly possible.

But I also realize that developers would rather develope code than maintain code, and sales people would rather mine a fresh customer lode than rework the old. And companies like Steinberg and Tascam loudly declared their
their intent to support, just before throwing their customers under the bus.

So I would hope that the support and improvement of Notion does occur, but I think its likely that I will have to wait for a new startup, formed by people who are tired of the notation software status quo--and who have a bright new notion....
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Re: What happened to Notion?

Postby Surfwhammy » Tue May 31, 2011 10:41 am

I am not certain how Notion Music does Mac and Windows versions of NOTION, and it is possible that there is a special software development platform that makes it possible to develop one set of source code with some platform-specific modifications, which is the way RealBASIC works, but perhaps not . . .

Regardless, the reality for software development in the Apple universe is that a significant amount of code is the same for Mac OS X applications and iOS applications, and the common code is increasing rather than decreasing, at least in some respects, so from my perspective focusing on iOS application development is stellar, since a good bit of the code developed for the iPhone, iPod touch, and iPad will apply directly to Mac OS X applications, although in this instance I think the specific iOS target device is the iPad, which is my focus, as well, since there is too little display space on the iPhone and iPod touch to do much of anything elaborate . . .

On the Mac, Notion 3 is stable, and it is working very nicely for me, so my general perspective is that focusing on iPad software development is great, since it has a vastly strong focus on the Apple universe . . .

I also think that this is good for the Windows flavors of everything, since no matter how Notion Music does it, there is a software development system or process that works nicely for doing both Mac and Windows versions of NOTION . . .

For older folks, such as myself, using a keyboard and mouse is very ingrained, and it is the user-interface I prefer, but for younger folks I think that everything is different, which is one of the reasons that the iPad is such an important form factor . . .

I am very skilled at touch typing, and I am able to compose and type a post like this at approximately 70 words per minute with nearly perfect grammar and spelling, which is fantastic, but if you watch youngsters working the keypad of a cellphone what you discover is that they can do pretty much the same thing, albeit with a somewhat cryptic language, which is an important bit of information when one gazes into the future toward the goal of determining how people will use computing devices . . .

Another fact is that the iPad will become faster and more powerful over the next few years, and what might be a bit much for an iPad to handle in terms of computing today will be easy for an iPad to handle in a few years . . .

The iPad is the "go to" form factor and computing platform at the dawn of the early-21st century, and focusing on developing applications for the iPad makes stellar sense for a many reasons . . .

And without wandering into a lot of software engineering stuff, the fact of the matter is that pretty much everything Notion Music is doing for the iPad will apply to the Mac, where I think a reasonable estimate is somewhere in the range of 75 percent or higher, and it probably is higher if everything is designed and structured correctly . . .

For reference, I have been a registered Apple Developer Connection (ADC) member for quite a while (Mac OS and iOS), so there is a lot of stuff about which I know but cannot say, since there are NDAs and so forth, but going on readily available Apple approved public information, I think it should be obvious that there are not so many differences in Mac OS X and iOS applications, at least with respect to the iPad and Mac desktop and notebook computers . . .

Yet another fact is that the iPad is a tablet computing device, and I have been studying and researching tablet computers for decades, which gives me some insights in the grand scheme of everything that most folks do not have . . .

And one of these insights is that the rules for user-interface activities are very different in an application that is designed for tablet computing, since in the tablet computing universe the primary input device is the finger, since the user-interface metaphor is "pen and paper", where the "pen" is a finger and the "paper" is the touch screen . . .

So, what happens is that the user-interface work moves from (a) the user doing most of the work via a keyboard and mouse to (b) the software doing most of the work and then packaging it so that the user can do everything essentially with a finger, which is excellent for a virtual festival of reasons, where one of the most important reasons is that it pretty much puts an end to what I call "lazy software engineering", where software engineers make an effort to move as much of the work to the user as possible . . .

"Lazy software engineering" is not so difficult to do for a desktop or notebook computing device that has a keyboard and mouse, but when the primary user input device is a finger, the software engineers and user-interface designers have no option but to do a lot more of the work, which is promoted to an even higher level by the reality that multilevel fly-out menus, hot keys, shortcuts, and all that stuff simply does not exist for a touch tablet when the user-interface is designed intelligently and thoughtfully . . .

For reference, I started doing Windows software development with the first version of Windows, and I continue to do it, although for the most part I switched to the Mac about a decade ago, and one of the realities from my perspective is that Bill Gates is a remarkably hyperactive fellow who needs to have constant geek-level feedback from computing devices, which for a while in the Windows universe mapped to having to deal with a virtual festival of frivolous and annoying messages when doing just about anything, with some of the messages having no purpose other than inquire whether you wanted to subscribe to MSN . . .

At some point, even the slow folks start to suspect that having to click on an "OK" button every five minutes in response to a virtual festival of silly pop-up messages is indisputable evidence of a mental deficiency, but so what . . .

So what!

Bill did a good job, and the world moves onward and upward . . .

Summarizing, my perspective is that focusing on the iPad is stellar, and Notion 3 is working very nicely for me, which makes one of the most important rules of software engineering useful to observe:

If it is not broken, then do not fix it!

And while I cannot explain all the reasons for my perspective, I think it should be obvious that the combination of an iPad and a Mac desktop or notebook computer has vast potential for moving music composition and production to a new and quite amazing level, where an excellent thought exercise is to ponder the way things might work sometime in the future when you can do everything with your finger, with the idea being to focus not on the specific technical stuff that needs to happen behind the scenes (which is what software engineers, architects, user-interface designers, and so forth do) but instead to focus on being able to do stuff in an Utopian way, where stuff just happens without requiring you to know precisely how it works, for sure . . .

For sure! :)
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Re: What happened to Notion?

Postby pcartwright » Tue May 31, 2011 11:16 am

Surfwhammy wrote:[...]Notion 3 is stable, and it is working very nicely for me, so my general perspective is that focusing on iPad software development is great, since it has a vastly strong focus on the Apple universe . . .

[...]

focusing on the iPad is stellar, and Notion 3 is working very nicely for me, which makes one of the most important rules of software engineering useful to observe:

If it is not broken, then do not fix it!


I strongly disagree with these statements.

There are several important notation features missing from Notion (which have been discussed ad nauseam on this forum) as well as technical features (like rewire - which I am currently doing a small shootout to point out the problems and will post soon) which are broken.

I am a Notion fan myself, and I admire the approach Notion took in the realm of digital music notation and production. I even appreciate Notion's jump into new platforms like the iPad, but, as a Notion user, I do feel like I've been left out in the rain. Even though cloud and mobile computing are the future, the fact is that most production (especially production which involves large 3rd party libraries) still requires the power found in desktop computing (i.e. would use Notion). There are numerous items in Notion that need attention, fixes, and improvements; just search the forum for 'bugs' or the feature request forum and see for yourself.

I understand that resources are limited, so I sincerely hope that the Notion team jumps back into development of Notion 3.x (or maybe 4.0) once they have a secure place in the mobile computing realm.
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Re: What happened to Notion?

Postby cr3ator84 » Tue May 31, 2011 11:59 am

agreed,

i'm going to be buying a macbook pro to do some serious work soon

i wouldn't even consider an iPad for doing anything serious with - it's a toy, an added luxury to play on the train/tube/plane etc.

i seriously hope the workstation version of Notion continues to be supported and enhanced as i don't believe it has surpassed Finale and Sibelius yet BUT is definitely not far off from superceding them both in my opinion.
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Re: What happened to Notion?

Postby Admin » Tue May 31, 2011 1:40 pm

cr3ator84 wrote:agreed,

i'm going to be buying a macbook pro to do some serious work soon

i wouldn't even consider an iPad for doing anything serious with - it's a toy, an added luxury to play on the train/tube/plane etc.

i seriously hope the workstation version of Notion continues to be supported and enhanced as i don't believe it has surpassed Finale and Sibelius yet BUT is definitely not far off from superceding them both in my opinion.


This is the last time that I will say this (starting to sound like a broken record:))

We are in no way shape or form abandoning N3 or the desktop version of NOTION. As of right now updates are going to be further apart as we are working on some iPad development....but WE ARE NOT ABANDONING NOTION!!

Thanks,
Kyle
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Re: What happened to Notion?

Postby cr3ator84 » Tue May 31, 2011 4:08 pm

Admin wrote:
We are in no way shape or form abandoning N3 or the desktop version of NOTION. As of right now updates are going to be further apart as we are working on some iPad development....but WE ARE NOT ABANDONING NOTION!!

Thanks,
Kyle


woot! :D

sorry, we just needed to hear you say it again! :P
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Re: What happened to Notion?

Postby tubatimberinger » Mon Jun 06, 2011 5:12 pm

pcartwright wrote:
Surfwhammy wrote:[...]Notion 3 is stable, and it is working very nicely for me, so my general perspective is that focusing on iPad software development is great, since it has a vastly strong focus on the Apple universe . . .

[...]

focusing on the iPad is stellar, and Notion 3 is working very nicely for me, which makes one of the most important rules of software engineering useful to observe:

If it is not broken, then do not fix it!


I strongly disagree with these statements.

There are several important notation features missing from Notion (which have been discussed ad nauseam on this forum) as well as technical features (like rewire - which I am currently doing a small shootout to point out the problems and will post soon) which are broken.

I am a Notion fan myself, and I admire the approach Notion took in the realm of digital music notation and production. I even appreciate Notion's jump into new platforms like the iPad, but, as a Notion user, I do feel like I've been left out in the rain. Even though cloud and mobile computing are the future, the fact is that most production (especially production which involves large 3rd party libraries) still requires the power found in desktop computing (i.e. would use Notion). There are numerous items in Notion that need attention, fixes, and improvements; just search the forum for 'bugs' or the feature request forum and see for yourself.

I understand that resources are limited, so I sincerely hope that the Notion team jumps back into development of Notion 3.x (or maybe 4.0) once they have a secure place in the mobile computing realm.


I strongly agree with your strong disagreement. N3 is not the most stable program. I will also refrain from listing all the fundamental things pending a fix as one need only review the pages in the N3 forum. However, there are not many other programs to compare it to due to it's ground breaking nature. Comparing it to Sib/Fin is still apples and oranges for they are primarily notation programs that have, over their years of existence, incorporated and enhanced their playback capabilities while still focusing on PRINTED MUSIC. N3 is a sample library interface which, instead of a multi-track/mixer GUI, uses actual musical notation (NOTES)for editing; brilliant! Notion (when it works right) plays back much better than Sib/Fin. But notation wise (for actual printed music for others to read and perform), still is lacking. Although I must say it has made tremendous strides since N2.

Even though I use the basic, stock LSO library, no 3rd party Vst's I still encounter hiccups all the time which almost always cause me to spend hours discovering a work around. I continue to use N3 because the end product is usually worth the hassle and I have faith, dare say I expect that the offending issue will be fixed soon as the kind problems I refer to aren't minor annoyances nor features I would like to see but rather truly fundamental problems that can make a program unusable.

But the hassle/end product ratio has shifted and continues to do so every time I complete a 10 minute work for large concert band only to find that in the 5th measure, I have some how (even though I have not worked on those measures for a month) , lost a beat or two which although are notated exactly right, just won't play without choking on some notes. Now i have to delete all the bar lines (I use LOTS of mixed meter) and re-bar the entire section. Or when I start extracting parts only to realize that I simply will not be able to hand them out to my players because pro orchestra cats can be really snooty when it comes to parts (especially if it is not 100% tonal and easy to play). Notion still has too many little notation things which actually become very big things when they stop a timed rehearsal.

So, I also must express my disappointment in this direction. I truly believe it is not Notion Music's intent to abandon Notion3. But intentions and how the story ends can be two different things. I am having a problem even understanding what the attraction could be? I mean I get that it is the new hot thing, but look at the forums; since March 25, Progressions For Ipads launch date, the Progression for Ipad has a total of 5 topics posted, two of which are from admin, with a total of 14 posts for the entire thread. In contrast, the Notion forum, from the same date, has over 50 topics with more total posts than I care to tally. Also, note many of these are of the 'I can't believe this is a bug?' nature. So I wonder where they get feedback telling you to focus on the ipad (certainly not from these forums). I think it is clear who the serious, loyal customers actually are.

The ipad is a toy and progression is an entry level program. The ipad will be a toy for several years to come. I cannot see any professional use for it unless you are only doing pop/commercial music. Notion 3 primarily is an orchestral library and as such Notion Music should focus on that niche while it still has the market cornered (are there any other sample libraries which use notation as their interface yet?) Sure, start developing now. I get it, but not at the cost of your flag ship product.

sincerely,

tim
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Re: What happened to Notion?

Postby wcreed51 » Mon Jun 06, 2011 9:58 pm

Amen brother!
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