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What happened to Notion?

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Re: What happened to Notion?

Postby Surfwhammy » Mon Jun 06, 2011 11:44 pm

tubatimberinger wrote:The ipad is a toy and progression is an entry level program. The ipad will be a toy for several years to come. I cannot see any professional use for it unless you are only doing pop/commercial music.


From a high-level perspective, I think it is reasonable to suggest that there are at least as many opinions on computing devices as there are on electric guitars, where in the latter category I like the Fender American Deluxe Stratocaster, albeit with a few custom modifications . . .

The iPad is a new computing device, but the general concept is something I have been studying and pondering for several decades, and the reality is that it takes a while to understand, since for the most part everything is very different . . .

Youngsters understand it instantly, but this mostly is the consequence of their having no preconceived ideas about it, which is very different from older folks who have become accustomed to using keyboards and mice . . .

I learned to touch-type on a manual typewriter, and the reality at the dawn of the early-21st century is that at least half the people on this planet have no idea what a "manual typewriter" is, let alone what they might do with one, which in some respects is the same case with the abacus and slide rule, but so what . . .

So what!

There are several very important realities:

(1) The iPad is not a toy . . .

(2) Excluding the quite unlikely possibility that every current Notion 3 user is ready, willing, and able to pay at least $10,000 for a new version of NOTION, Notion Music needs to have a steady revenue stream to continue engaging productively in the digital music universe . . .

(3) The iPad is the "goto" computing device for the future, and while this might not make a lot of sense to everyone at present, it is a fact . . .

(4) At least 75 percent, if not considerably more, of what is done on the iPad in the iOS application development universe maps directly to Mac OS X application development and its universe, which is another fact . . .

(5) I think that it is reasonable to suggest that the customer base for Notion 3 (a) has been established and (b) has reached its practical level of maturity or saturation, which in terms of Economics maps to being pretty much what it is, although there certainly will be new customers appearing every so often . . .

(6) As much as I appreciate and enjoy Classical music, another fact is that it was the Rock and Roll music of the 18th century, which is fine with me, since I like all genres and styles of music, but the fact of the matter is that "Bad Romance" (Lady Gaga) currently has 386 million YouTube views, while most of the stellar musical bits by Amadeus Mozart have 10 views . . .

(7) In the early-1990s, I worked on a Windows software development project with a fellow who had a Doctorate in Artificial Intelligence and was highly focused on designing advanced algorithms for real-time computer graphics, and based on this experience and some fascinating discussions, I am quite amazed by the way Notion 3 works visually. I have a degree in Computer Science and over three decades of experience working on virtually mind-bogglingly advanced computing projects, including the NASA Space Shuttle Simulation System, and consequently it is not so easy to impress me, but I am very impressed by Notion 3 . . .

(8) Continuing in business requires a company to sell products, and this is where the iPad is vastly important, because it is a new market that has great potential for generating a significant revenue stream . . .

(9) The first generation iPad has a 15 million customer base, and current estimates are that Apple will sell approximately 30 million second generation iPad2 devices this year (2011), which from the perspective of mathematics maps maps to a geometric trajectory . . .

Summarizing, it is fine to express the belief that Notion Music should focus all its efforts on Classical music and folks who are more comfortable with keyboards and mice, but unless everyone is ready, willing, and able to pay $10,000 for an upgrade to NOTION, then the reality is that the money to pay for software engineers, designers, testers, and so forth needs to come from somewhere, and at present the iPad application market is the "goto" market, which is a fact . . .

tubatimberinger wrote:Notion 3 primarily is an orchestral library and as such Notion Music should focus on that niche while it still has the market cornered (are there any other sample libraries which use notation as their interface yet?) Sure, start developing now. I get it, but not at the cost of your flag ship product.


While I understand the logic, this is not the way I view Notion 3 . . .

From my perspective, Notion 3 is a music notation program that does an excellent job of generating audio using virtual instruments, and from this perspective the fact that Notion 3 comes with a set of bundled virtual instruments is interesting but mostly is secondary or tertiary at best . . .

I started by purchasing Miroslav Philharmonik (IK Multimedia) without having any idea what it did, since at the time all I knew was that I needed some orchestra stuff, but very soon an email arrived that had some information about Notion SLE for Miroslav Philharmonik, which I purchased immediately, and then a week or so later yet another email arrived with information about upgrading to Notion 3, which I also did immediately . . .

I suppose it is nice to know that there are some bundled virtual instruments parked in the Notion Music folder, but other than the Electric Guitar (a personal favorite), I rarely use them, since I prefer Miroslav Philharmonik . . .

Summarizing, the reality here in the sound isolation studio is that after a year of diligent work, I can do this in a day or two on the Mac with Notion 3, SampleTank 2.5 XL (IK Multimedia), and T-RackS 3.5 Deluxe (IK Multimedia):

"Sparkles" -- MP3 (4.1MB, 291-kbps [VBR], approximately 1 minute and 55 seconds)

If I could do this on an iPad2, then I think I would be so tickled that I might wet my pants, which is fabulous . . .

Fabulous! :)
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Re: What happened to Notion?

Postby geebo2b » Tue Jun 07, 2011 5:01 am

So far, the only people I have seen with an iPad are children around the age of 7=12 playing video games on them. I have yet to see an adult using one seriously. Everytime I hear someone talk about an iPad, the kind of spew some invective about how it 'doesn't do certain things.
I know I won't be getting one..but I sure use Notion3 on my Imac, and there are some real needs in Notion3 that could offer so much in terms of time saving while composing..and at least before leaving to play with iPad..how about an eq plug-in ?
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Re: What happened to Notion?

Postby achambily » Tue Jun 07, 2011 8:39 am

Any plan for v4 ?
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Re: What happened to Notion?

Postby geebo2b » Tue Jun 07, 2011 2:40 pm

Surfwhammy said :
(1) The iPad is not a toy . . .

(2) Excluding the quite unlikely possibility that every current Notion 3 user is ready, willing, and able to pay at least $10,000 for a new version of NOTION, Notion Music needs to have a steady revenue stream to continue engaging productively in the digital music universe . . .

(3) The iPad is the "goto" computing device for the future, and while this might not make a lot of sense to everyone at present, it is a fact . . .

First I want to say Surfwhammy is absolutely a rational thinking machine and I deeply respect SW's logic and expertise.

I am not gifted with that kind of logic but I have lived a bit and just based on my experience and observation:

So far, I haven't seen too many people with iPads, but the dozen or so I have seen have been in the hands of children playing video games on them. So far, from my experience, iPad is indeed a toy. It is possible sales figures tell a different story but I just haven't seen the 'rush' to use those things yet.

As far as the statement that if Notion doesn't head towards the iPad market, then Notion upgrades will cost the price of a small war in a failed state, I just wonder if it is that accurate?. I don't know, I just find it worriesome and troubling from a business ethics standpoint. By that I mean, when I am sold on a product and finally jump in and spend my hard earned dollars on it and re-tool my work to depend on that product, I find it very stressful to imagine that that product as I invested in it may be abandoned. Has this happened in the past ?? YES!!

I stopped buying Roland gear because they would put out a synth or sampler and within 3 years abandon it for a 'new' product. The last time was when I paid over $2,000 for a Roland S-770 (memba those?) and in less then 2 years there was no support for them and no library. When I told the salesman that I bought it from and asked what I could do with it and he replied : Use it for a doorstop!"

I remember Video tape players: Beta vs VHS! I had friends spend tons of money on the Beta only to have that format abandoned and VHS ruled for a number of years.

Laser Discs, remember how expensive.

The list goes on.

What I am trying to say is that these kinds of business practices ( while understanding a constant need for new revenue) are not unlike getting married and finding out that the honeymoon night was the only night you were going to 'get any' and then your partner was going to be off getting satisfaction in other arenas.

Fine, do the Ipad thing..but please don't abandon us old Classically trained people who write for large symphonic sounds Believe it or not we have venues for our works such as supplementing the performances of smaller ensembles, churches, synagogues, and just the joy of composing. C'mon, you proposed to us, we married you, don't leave us stranded after the honeymoon! :D
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Re: What happened to Notion?

Postby tubatimberinger » Tue Jun 07, 2011 5:18 pm

I have disagreements with much of your reply as well I am afraid...

From a high-level perspective, I think it is reasonable to suggest that there are at least as many opinions on computing devices as there are on electric guitars, where in the latter category I like the Fender American Deluxe Stratocaster, albeit with a few custom modifications . . .

The iPad is a new computing device, but the general concept is something I have been studying and pondering for several decades, and the reality is that it takes a while to understand, since for the most part everything is very different . . .

Youngsters understand it instantly, but this mostly is the consequence of their having no preconceived ideas about it, which is very different from older folks who have become accustomed to using keyboards and mice . . .

I learned to touch-type on a manual typewriter, and the reality at the dawn of the early-21st century is that at least half the people on this planet have no idea what a "manual typewriter" is, let alone what they might do with one, which in some respects is the same case with the abacus and slide rule, but so what . . .


Since the Pc platform has had tablets for about 10 years now, I cannot see it as a new computing device. Also, and I have not tried it yet, but I am certain one could run N3 on such a device, maybe some of the touch features would not transfer seamlessly, but tablets are NOT new. Also, I hope by "high level perspective" you do not imply my perspective to be an inferior or uninformed one. I too know what a manual typewriter is and actually learned music with pen and paper. My background is that of a professionally trained composer, NOT a computer science person however, I have been using Computer Software and MIDI etc. since Windows for Workgroups 3.1 and OS 8 (I am fluent in both platforms).

Then, that you frame your biased opinions as realities or matters of fact...

(1) The iPad is not a toy . . .


Maybe my statement was a bit harsh and from a computer science standpoint I see the sexiness of it [the ipad] and I fully understand the future implications of touch screen computing. However, from the stand point of a composer who writes for the instruments the Notion was/is primarily intended for (notice the stock library is an ORCHESTRAL one, not a suite of electric and acoustic guitars basses etc.), to have to work with 15-30 staves on a screen not even the size of a sheet of paper is simply NOT professionally feasible. This sentiment is shared by every composer I know. They all think the ipad is nifty but they all agree "I could never do my real stuff on one" (with the exception of using it as a controller for electronic music which by and large has no score or notational needs). Actually, I cannot think of many real world professional level applications that the ipad in its present form are really adequate for with the exception of MS office, internet browsing and the like. It either lacks the processing power or the actual hardware to complete most tasks. So sorry, for now, it is a toy albeit a very fancy one that if I could afford, I would certainly own myself.

(2) Excluding the quite unlikely possibility that every current Notion 3 user is ready, willing, and able to pay at least $10,000 for a new version of NOTION, Notion Music needs to have a steady revenue stream to continue engaging productively in the digital music universe . . .


Where in the world you get the 10k price tag is beyond me. Notion is like 95% top shelf. However, the last 5 percent, which are primarily little things that become big things in real world application, are what keep it from simply winning all the Finale and Sibelius users to our team permanently. I cannot tell you how many of my friends and colleagues have been inches from becoming full time N3 users only to put it down the demo after finding a seemingly unbelievable bug or missing feature. Notion, in the world of music software, is truly revolutionary and if it worked with the same stability that its competitors (which really are apples and oranges as I said in my previous reply), it would be the new standard and redefine music software. Having a ground breaking product that works makes its own revenue stream. Your assertion that N3 is perfectly fine and stable and therefore able to take a back seat to ipad development is one I take particular exception to.

(3) The iPad is the "goto" computing device for the future, and while this might not make a lot of sense to everyone at present, it is a fact . . .


Apple is still and will be for many years to come a very small part of the computer world. Cost drives all things in this world and they are just too expensive for most users. This is fact and can be confirmed by the global economy. Again, PC tablets have been around for years. Do not be surprised if this Christmas we see a huge surges in tablet production to compete. The Androids are already coming out in force. They are half the price and can do all the same things.

(4) At least 75 percent, if not considerably more, of what is done on the iPad in the iOS application development universe maps directly to Mac OS X application development and its universe, which is another fact . . .


This is a fact, but an insignificant one due to the same previous factors regarding Apples real world position in the computing universe. Let me state however, it has always been my assertion that Mac is the better computers. However, again, cost, cost, cost.

(5) I think that it is reasonable to suggest that the customer base for Notion 3 (a) has been established and (b) has reached its practical level of maturity or saturation, which in terms of Economics maps to being pretty much what it is, although there certainly will be new customers appearing every so often . .


See my response to 2) Notion loses lots of customers before they become customers because they find it not ready or mature enough a program for their needs. I have lost count of how many of my friends and colleagues have had this experience.

(6) As much as I appreciate and enjoy Classical music, another fact is that it was the Rock and Roll music of the 18th century, which is fine with me, since I like all genres and styles of music, but the fact of the matter is that "Bad Romance" (Lady Gaga) currently has 386 million YouTube views, while most of the stellar musical bits by Amadeus Mozart have 10 views . . .


I do not know where to begin addressing this without sounding condescending but I will try. It is indeed a fact that the music of Mozart and Beethoven was the pop music of the 18th (and 19th) century. But you see, music for orchestral instruments did no stop there. Not all orchestral music is classical. Actually no music for orchestra composed today is classical as classical describes a certain stylistic period in history. Musical composition, like all art continues to evolve and I will list some composers you should definitely check out at the end of this. My music sounds NOTHING like Mozart and Lady Gaga has nothing to do with Notion.

I am guessing you have not been using Notion since 1x and maybe this is shapes your perspective a bit. It is not designed for pop music. It was designed for composers of orchestral music. Everything about its origins points to this. For instance the now 'on hold' "Realize Music" competition for the best notion file is for ORCHESTRA not rock and roll band. The grand prize was not a record deal but rather a PREMIER PERFORMANCE by the LONDON SYMPHONY ORCHESTRA. The GUI is notation, NOT multi-track recorder like other sample library and sequencing applications. There are tons of programs that will play your libraries (better than notion will sadly) and have been for ages. But none of them use notation. Notion bridged the gap between composer and technology. It is the sequencer "for the rest of us" This is what sets it apart from its predecessors in the sample library and sequencer world.


Summarizing, it is fine to express the belief that Notion Music should focus all its efforts on Classical music and folks who are more comfortable with keyboards and mice, but unless everyone is ready, willing, and able to pay $10,000 for an upgrade to NOTION, then the reality is that the money to pay for software engineers, designers, testers, and so forth needs to come from somewhere, and at present the iPad application market is the "goto" market, which is a fact . . .


See, there you go again with that word "classical" again. Notice I do not use that word. I use the word ORCHESTRAL. Now I primarily use N3 it to make high quality renderings of concert music which again, sounds nothing like Mozart. But forget me because I probably comprise the smaller demographic of the average professional composer who would use Notion. Ever heard a film score you liked? How do you think those are produced and who do you think produces them? I assure you it is not Lady Gaga. I love Lady Gaga by the way. As for your notion (no pun intended) that they use the Ipad market as a cash grab; what good will that do when their flag ship product still does not quite work right? Before there was Aurelia, Scorch or Kontakt, Sibelius was an awesome product itself. Notion is an awesome concept but still not quite Awesome enough.


While I understand the logic, this is not the way I view Notion 3 . . .

From my perspective, Notion 3 is a music notation program that does an excellent job of generating audio using virtual instruments, and from this perspective the fact that Notion 3 comes with a set of bundled virtual instruments is interesting but mostly is secondary or tertiary at best . . .

I started by purchasing Miroslav Philharmonik (IK Multimedia) without having any idea what it did, since at the time all I knew was that I needed some orchestra stuff, but very soon an email arrived that had some information about Notion SLE for Miroslav Philharmonik, which I purchased immediately, and then a week or so later yet another email arrived with information about upgrading to Notion 3, which I also did immediately . . .

I suppose it is nice to know that there are some bundled virtual instruments parked in the Notion Music folder, but other than the Electric Guitar (a personal favorite), I rarely use them, since I prefer Miroslav Philharmonik . .


This I find particularly troubling. I don't think you (nor many of Notion's users) quite have a grasp on the 'set of bundled instruments' for it is vast and deep. It is a software sample of the ENTIRE London Symphony Orchestra, one of the finest orchestras in the World which IS an INDISPUTABLE fact. Miroslav Philharmonic; is that really even a real performing orchestra? I never heard of them until I started shopping around for libraries. Maybe the low price is what threw you off for indeed all the other libraries of comparable size easily price in the thousands. In short no composer in his right mind would NOT switch to Notion for $299USD unless of course, the product just had too many little quirks. I really do not even understand why people use third party libraries. I am able to produce renderings that rival anything Hans Zimmer puts out. My friends in academia are always amazed at the sounds N3 puts out and I assure you when it comes to music THEY are hard to impress.

So as much as it seems you are under the impression that we simply do not see the whole board in terms of the direction Notion Music is taking, I would encourage you to do some further research into Notion the program and the company, its past and music in general beyond the classical era and Lady Gaga (did I already say I love her?)

Sincerely,

tim

As promised here are a few names of some living composers to give some perspective of what orchestral music is today

In no particular order as this list could easily be hundreds of names long

John Corigliano
Jennifer Higdon
John Mackey
Libby Larsen
Joseph Schwanter
Augusta Read Thomas
George Crumb
John Adams
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Re: What happened to Notion?

Postby achambily » Tue Jun 07, 2011 7:31 pm

You can add mine (Axel Casadesus : http://soundcloud.com/axel-casadesus/sets).
Notion, Cubase 7, EWQLSO Gold, VSL SE
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M-Audio FTP
M-Audio KeyStudio 25
Clavinova CLP 811
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Re: What happened to Notion?

Postby geebo2b » Tue Jun 07, 2011 8:26 pm

achambily wrote:You can add mine (Axel Casadesus : http://soundcloud.com/axel-casadesus/sets).

Any relation to that Magnificent and Famous Pianist/Composer Robert Casadesus??
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Re: What happened to Notion?

Postby achambily » Wed Jun 08, 2011 6:46 am

Yes :)
My grand father is Francis, the composer, the eldest of the family.
I'm at the bottom left here in the tree : http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Famille_Casadesus ;)
Notion, Cubase 7, EWQLSO Gold, VSL SE
Win7 x64, I7 Dell studio laptop, 8GB RAM
M-Audio FTP
M-Audio KeyStudio 25
Clavinova CLP 811
Sennheiser e840
Sennheiser HD280 Pro
Yamaha HS50M

http://chambily.com/
http://soundcloud.com/axel-casadesus/sets
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Re: What happened to Notion?

Postby geebo2b » Wed Jun 08, 2011 10:34 am

achambily wrote:Yes :)
My grand father is Francis, the composer, the eldest of the family.
I'm at the bottom left here in the tree : http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Famille_Casadesus ;)

What a magnificent heritage!!!

I had a recording on an lp of Robert many mnay years ago. ( I cannot remember the music and for many years have not had that lp). But I remember the piano playing was absolutely exquisite. I must have been about 19 and had just started taking piano lessons!! I must have listened to that record a thousand times!! So Beautiful, his playing!!!

What a blessing for you to a part of that incredible heritage!! I am off to find recordings of Robert again! :D
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Re: What happened to Notion?

Postby achambily » Wed Jun 08, 2011 1:25 pm

Yes, it is a marvellous heritage indeed.
Robert was a great specialist of Mozart and Ravel.
There is a lot of recordings available in audio cds.

For my own, I play the organ, and I remember that Robert said to me in 1972 "This instrument is too much complicated for me". Ahahahaha !!!
Notion, Cubase 7, EWQLSO Gold, VSL SE
Win7 x64, I7 Dell studio laptop, 8GB RAM
M-Audio FTP
M-Audio KeyStudio 25
Clavinova CLP 811
Sennheiser e840
Sennheiser HD280 Pro
Yamaha HS50M

http://chambily.com/
http://soundcloud.com/axel-casadesus/sets
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