Logic, Reaper and other DAWS

[Zblogny]

I have not completely dropped Cubase which I practice for 15 years.
But Reaper is now my favorite DAW.
Precisely what is lacking in Reaper is a score editor.
Until now I only manged to do MIDI back and forth without real integration.
Could anyone here give a detailed explanation of how to use Notion3 in Reaper, for rewire-noobs ?
Thank you for your expert advices...

[klushund]

I think, reaper is really good. But the ReWire integration into Notion3 is quite erroneous. Approximately since one year the Notion people say, they are working on this issue (staying in contact with the Reaper team)...
A lot of people would like Notion 3 as score editor for Reaper. It would be interesting to get a statement from the Notion team about when the integration is supposed to work...

[Zblogny]

Cockos will soon release Reaper V4.
Any chance to see this problem solved with this new version ?

[jonknowles8]

Many thanks for the suggestions, guys!

As it happened I was away for 4 days and had my laptop with Logic 5 on it, and only a little Net access. So I didn't read about the 1 GB limitation re: Logic and VST's on the PC that Ian posted about, but did play with Logic a lot and reread half the manual. I was actually kind of getting to like Logic, at long last. (I am one of those who never got over Notator - till Notion came along.) Now, given the limitation with Logic that Ian mentioned, I'll be checking out Reaper starting tomorrow.

I do wonder, though, how serious this bug with ReWire and Notion that's been mentioned is.

Jon

[Surfwhammy]

I do wonder, though, how serious this bug with ReWire and Notion that's been mentioned is.

With the caveat that my current experience is on the Mac exclusively, it all depends on what you need to do and how the various software applications work . . .

ReWire is one of the technologies that is implemented in a variety of ways, ranging from minimal to extensive, so while it sounds fantastic for marketing purposes, the realities are not always so wonderful . . .

And it is not only third-party vendors that implement ReWire in different levels, because for example Reason 5 (Propellerhead Software) on the Mac does not appear to be able to function as a ReWIre host controller, even though ReWire is a technology that the folks at Propellerhead Software created . . .

As you might know, I am doing an ongoing series of experiments to determine a complete system for use here in the sound isolation studio, and I am making excellent progress toward this goal . . .

One of the key differences in the way I do songs is that I like to have a virtual festival of what I call "sparkles", which are various musical phrases that appear in different locations within what I call the "Spherical Sonic Landscape™", where for example one vector plane of the Spherical Sonic Landscape is my avatar for this FORUM, where to be specific it is the view from the back of your mind when you are looking forward, which is a somewhat strange perspective, but I find it very useful . . .


Vector Plane (X-Axis and Y-Axis) ~ Spherical Sonic Landscape

This is another vector plane of the Spherical Sonic Landscape, which is the view when you are in a tiny helicopter hovering above your head and looking directly downward, which is yet another somewhat strange perspective . . .


Vector Plane (X-Axis and Z-Axis) ~ Spherical Sonic Landscape

The third vector plane is the view from the side, which is the Y-Axis and Z-Axis, but it is bit difficult for me to draw, since it requires using rotation, which wanders quickly into engineering drafting, and doing a 3D version is a bit too much for my current drawing skills, but so what . . .

So what!

Instead of having an instrument play a series of notes in a fixed location, one of the way to transform the series of notes into a "sparkle" is to create multiple clones of the instrument and then to spread the notes in some sequence across the set of clones, where for example the notes of a one-octave major scale can be spread across 8 identical clones of a synthesizer, where each clone has a different panning location with perhaps 4 locations on the left half of the panning "rainbow" and 4 locations on the right half of the panning "rainbow", where I am using "rainbow" in the sense of the panning range looking like the area underneath a rainbow or the area that is wiped by a windshield wiper on a car . . .

Using the hours on a clock face, "far-left" maps to 9:00 while "far-right" maps to 3:00, and "top-center" maps to 12:00 . . .

Hence, if specific panning locations are set to {9:00, 10:00, 11:00, 11:30, 12:30, 1:00, 2:00, 3:00}, there are 8 positions from "far-left" to "far-right", and a specific note of the one-octave major scale can be assigned to each location, where if you start with the root note at 9:00 and then play the one-octave major scale ascending with each subsequent note being in an incrementally different location, the result for the listener is that the notes of the one-octave major scale ascend in a "rainbow" positional trajectoryh from "far-left" to "top-center" and then to "far-right", which puts the notes of the one-octave ascending major scale into motion within the Spherical Sonic Landscape . . .

Conversely, you can play the descending notes of the one-octave major scale from "far-right" to "top-center" and then to "far-left" , which combined with the ascending scale maps to a back-and-forth type of thing . . .

And if you are good with mathematics, it is not so difficult to understand that there are quite a few ways to put notes into motion, where it also is possible to spread the notes of a phrase across several different types of instruments, each of which is in a different location within the Spherical Sonic Landscape . . .

Basically, there are so many combinations and permutations that it is a bit mind-boggling, really . . .

[NOTE: I tend to use "combinations and permutations" rather than only "combinations" or "permutations", but the general idea is that "permutation" is used when order matters, where in contrast "combination" is used when order does not matter. So for a set of two things {A, B}, there is one combination that has both items, but there are two permutations ("AB", "BA"), since the order (which one comes first) is important for a permutation but is not important for purposes of determining a combination. And I provide this bit of information for the folks who might not know it, since the more stuff one knows the more one can do . . . ]

Really!

Positioning sounds on the other vector planes is a bit more difficult, but there are VST plug-ins that do it, although doing it generally requires that only one source sound be present at the time, since creating the illusion of something being below, in front, or in back requires a lot of very specific reverberation, echo, and phasing . . .

With this in mind, it is not so difficult to understand that creating a virtual festival of "sparkles" requires a lot of VSTi instrument tracks in a Notion 3 score, which quickly maps to encountering various resource and computing limitations, but so what . . .

So what!

The fact of the matter is that while it takes a while to do all the required instrument cloning and note positioning, doing it this way in Notion 3 is remarkably precise and very practical . . .

This is an example of doing a one-octave major scale on a piano, where the individual notes are arranged in a "rainbow" pattern within the Spherical Sonic Landscape, and it is best heard while wearing headphones . . .

http://surfwhammys.com/Major-Scale-Sparkle.mp3

This is the Notion 3 project file for the "Major Scale Sparkle" example, and it is approximately 258KB in size . . .

http://surfwhammys.com/Major-Scale-Sparkle.notion

One of the more obvious aspects is that the notes tend to blur when they are in the 10:00 to 2:00 range, so this tends to suggest that location is not so linear, which makes a bit of sense considering that loudness is logarithmic, for sure . . .

For sure!

Another significant aspect of "sparkling" is that if there are 20 primary instruments and you "sparkle" each one with 8 clones, then this maps to 160 instruments, which is a lot of instruments, hence the need to separate the "sparkles" into subsets where each subset of "sparkles" is a separate Notion 3 project file (a.k.a., "score") but with a few common instruments for purposes of establishing a consistent frame of reference and so forth . . .

Doing this tends to require one to have an extraordinary level of tolerance for highly repetitive and remarkably boring procedures, but the results are stellar with respect to putting music into motion in new ways that would be essentially impossible to do with a real orchestra or whatever, since for all practical purposes it would require as many as eight orchestras positioned around a concert hall, which in the extreme would require the audience to be suspended in the middle of the concert hall space, since there would be at least one orchestra located physically underneath the audience and at least another orchestra located physically above the audience, which I think would be pretty cool but is not very practical, although it is not nearly so difficult to do in the digital universe, really . . .

Really!

And this is one of the reasons that I tend to have fewer than 8 locations for "sparkles", with 2 or 4 locations working very nicely {9:00, 3:00), {10:00, 2:00), and so forth and so on, as well as (9:00, 11:00, 1:00, 3:00}, which you can hear in this "basic rhythm section" done in Notion 3 that is "sparkled" more elaborately, really . . .

[NOTE: This is best heard when listening with studio-quality headphones like the SONY MDR-7506 (a personal favorite), since it is a headphone mix. And for reference, I have worked on this particular song for approximately 200 hours, with another 100 or so additional hours working on making sense of Reason 5, which I am going to use to add Dubstep and Trance stuff, all of which is done with highly repeatable, computer-automated procedures in a very elaborate system, which is fantastic from my perspective, since even as headphone mix, this sound pretty good and is considerably better than the stuff I was doing before I discovered Notion 3, music notation, VSTi instruments, and so forth and so on. It might require 500 to 1,000 hours for a song, but if it sound good, then it is a lot better than doing a song quickly that does not sound good, and I think that with more experience, the total time required for a song will decrease significantly, since there is a lot of experimenting and learning required at present . . . ]

http://www.surfwhammys.com/Put-It-O-Me-1-18-2011-ST25-N3-DP7.mp3

Locating sounds very precisely within the Spherical Sonic Landscape is a rather complex activity, but it is very nice when it is done correctly, since it makes it possible to add a different type of motion as well as a bit of clarity with respect to individual instruments being identifiable . . .

So, if you need to do this type of auditory illusion work, then the fact of the matter is that it requires a lot of VSTi instruments and a lot of Notion 3 project files (a.k.a., "scores"), since there are definite limits to the number of VSTi instruments one can have in a Notion 3 project . . .

And if you are pulling all the computer-generated VSTi instruments into a DAW via ReWire, you want to do it as efficiently as possible, which on the Mac with Digital Performer 7.22 maps to separating the overall score into subsections, each of which is a separate Notion 3 project file with perhaps 20 tracks . . .

Another aspect of ReWire on the Mac is that in my testing with Digital Performer 7.22 it requires inserting four empty measures in the Notion 3 project at the beginning where there are no notes in the empty measures. Then the transport in Digital Performer 7.22 always must be started at the beginning of the fifth measure, because starting the transport at the first measure crashes Digital Performer 7.22 and causes Notion 3 to wander into La La Land . . .

And on the Mac it is best to avoid using ReWire channels 1 through 10 with Digital Performer 7.22 . . .

Additionally, it is best to record a few seconds of audio and then to stop and rewind to the start of the fifth measure, which preloads the audio buffers, at which time you can record the instrumental parts as soundbites, and it is very important to leave the buffering in Notion 3 Preferences at the default value of 256 samples, at least on a 2.8-GHz 8-core Mac Pro running OS X 10.6.6, since a buffer size in Notion 3 of 256 samples is stellar but a larger buffer size takes too long to load and makes the rendering choppy . . .

When these special rules are followed carefully, ReWire with Digital Performer 7.22 controlling Notion 3 works very well reliably, for sure . . .

SUMMARY

There are quite a few ways to do everything, but when you need to perform activities with a lot of Notion 3 tracks via ReWire, the specific rules are very important, and if a DAW only works with a few ReWire channels in a very limited way, this can be a show-stopper problem . . .

I have done a tiny bit of testing with Reaper 3.74 on the Mac, and there are some things that I like, but my DAW is Digital Performer 7.22, and it works very nicely and quite reliably for controlling Notion 3.281 when I follow all the required procedures and rules . . .

And as noted every once in a while in my posts to this FORUM, I am not particularly interested in every aspect of a computer program being perfect, because from a mathematical perspective it is a paradox at best and an impossibility in any practical way . . .

So, my primary concern is being able to devise a practical set of procedures and rules that make it possible to do what I need to do in a reasonable way, which very consistently is the case with Notion 3, where it might take a bit of experimenting to discover a way to do something but ultimately I find a way that is practical and efficient in the grand scheme of everything . . .

I can move sounds entirely within Digital Performer 7, but it is a hassle . . .

Moving sounds within Notion 3 takes a while, but it is very precise, and it works wonderfully, which makes it practical, for sure . . .

For sure!

The first time I "sparkled" 16 quarter notes, it took approximately 10 hours, but now it does not take nearly so long, since the various procedures and rules are more intuitive, and I am developing specific techniques for doing it faster, although the fact of the matter is that it requires a bit of "busy work" to clone the instruments, to set the panning controls, and to copy, paste, and sequence the notes, but so what . . .

So what!

It works, and it sounds very nice, as well as adding a lot of energy to songs, which is fabulous . . .

Fabulous!

[jonknowles8]

I think Notion and Reaper complement each other nicely.

I really like Notion and I really like Reaper. I am not clear on how they complement each other nicely - at least with regard to how one gets Notion and Reaper to work together - other than by exporting audio from Notion track by track and importing into Reaper.

Earlier posts have said there is a continuing problem with Rewire when trying to use Notion and Reaper together - if I understand what was said. I'm not familiar with Rewire.

Reaper 4 is to be out fairly soon, they say and may (?) solve the Notion/Reaper problem.

In short, my question is how you can best use Notion with Reaper at this time? I'm on a PC.

Jon

[pcartwright]

The issues I expereience with Notion and rewire (as mentioned on another recent thread) seem to be universal (I have the same rewire issues when Notion is linked to Sonar as well as Reaper). I should say that Notion really complements Reaper; not necessarily the other way around. I have been using midiout (see post in the "tips and tricks" section) and syncing Notion to Reaper via MTC. As noted on my "tips and tricks post", the big downside is poor syncing when Notion changes tempo, but, in my experience, this works as well or better than rewire with either Reaper or Sonar.

Does anyone else use another DAW successfully (where Notion follows tempo changes, no jitters, etc) with Notion as a rewire device?

[pcartwright]

Looks like I was very wrong on this matter. I almost exclusively use Reaper as a DAW, and I must have forgotten some of my Sonar chops... regardless, I did some tweaking with Sonar's audio settings, and sure enough, Notion works pretty darn well with Sonar. My apologies to the Notion team for thinking the rewire issue was global. I hope that whatever issues exists between Reaper and Notion is corrected at some point, though.