NOTION Music Forum

My first tests of Notion 3 gave me the opportunity to exhume the old scores of a music written for a movie in 1967 and never recorded : The day before sessions planned at Barclay's studio, the producer found that it would be less expensive to use Albinoni's Adagio. So I've forgotten it all this time, and I had never heard how it sounded...
Here's a little raw excerpt, made entirely with Notion 3, instruments and Mix.
I just put the notes with the mouse, and did a little work on the dynamics.
I plan to transfer all this in Reaper for some fine tuning.
http://db.tt/spAp0XH

Great silky-sounding strings.

tombax wrote:Great silky-sounding strings.

I do not agree with you at all...
I think that strings sound metallic and quite artificial, especially the cello...

Zblogny wrote:Here's a little raw excerpt, made entirely with Notion 3, instruments and Mix.

I like the strings at the start of the song and throughout, as well as the first eight notes of the cello, but the cello then wanders into sounding a bit like 1960s Farfisa organ, which is a problem that took me a while to resolve, where the solution for me is to use Miroslav Philharmonik strings that specifically are played by the musicians in the particular articulation desired (as contrasted to trying to modify the native sound samples via computer-generated articulations) . . .

[NOTE: The first eight notes of the cello have an "Eleanor Rigby" (Beatles) TONE, which is very nice! ]

However, for vibrato and glissandi, I prefer the London Symphony Orchestra (LSO) VSTi strings that come with Notion 3, so it depends primarily on the desired playing style, really . . .

Really!

Notion 3 Reverb is outstanding, and it would be nice it were packaged as a separate VST, which I definitely will purchase for use in Digital Performer if it becomes available in a standalone version, since it is the best reverberation I have heard, and it has the dual advantages of sounding good for everything and being very simple to use . . .

The bassoon or saxophone is nice, as is the French horn or trumpet, but again mostly for the initial notes . . .

The concert pedal harp at the beginning is nice, and it works well with the strings . . .

But the star of the performance is the oboe, French accordion, or whatever it is . . .

It is a nice composition, and I like the theme and mood, which is fabulous . . .

Fabulous!

P. S. If you post the Notion 3 project file, I can do a version with a different set of VSTi instruments, since I have Miroslav Philharmonik and some other VSTi libraries, all of which are making a bit more sense with respect to being able to avoid using music notation articulations other than occasional dynamics and glissandi, where as a general rule my current strategy is to avoid using nearly all articulations, since they tend not to work so well with the various individual T-RackS 3 Deluxe (IK Multimedia) VST components that I use for adjusting dynamic ranges and so forth, with these primarily being the Brick Wall Limiter, Opto-Compressor, and Pultec EQP-1A3 Program Equalizer, typically at very soft settings . . .

Piano, Mezzo-Piano, Mezzo-Forte, and Forte generally are fine, but anything beyond that in either direction tends to play havoc with the aforementioned VST plug-ins in one way or another, since quite a few orchestral instruments have low levels, so making them even lower makes it nearly impossible to hear them, while attempting effectively to "pump" them with Fortondoando or higher makes the VST plug-ins distort . . .

Based on my experiments so far, I prefer to use staccato strings even when there is a legato passage, since the legato transitions from note to note tend to be better when the VSTi samples were done with the musicians playing staccato, which I can specify with Miroslav Philharmonik . . .

Yet, this might be due to my not fully understanding how to use the various instruments and music notation articulations, so it is an ongoing discovery process, where I am making a bit of progress, which from my perspective is the important thing, really . . .

Really! :)

Surfwhammy wrote:P. S. If you post the Notion 3 project file, I can do a version with a different set of VSTi instruments, since I have Miroslav Philharmonik and some other VSTi libraries

Thanks Surfwhammy, it would be interesting to compare different versions.

Achambily made this version with East West :

http://db.tt/lMaEESF

I made a few changes in my last version :
- remove the 4th measure
- add a few notes on the harp
- Change some instruments :
Violins 1 & 2 and celli from Notion 2
(Cello solo from N 3)
This is my new version :

http://db.tt/RAEMxAC
NB. Rendering level in Notion was quite weak, so I had to normalize it with Reaper before converting to mp3

And the Notion file :

http://db.tt/vQ5yLMW

Zblogny wrote:

Surfwhammy wrote:P. S. If you post the Notion 3 project file, I can do a version with a different set of VSTi instruments, since I have Miroslav Philharmonik and some other VSTi libraries

Thanks Surfwhammy, it would be interesting to compare different versions.

This is an excellent composition!

I like the new version, and it is interesting to hear it with EWQL instruments, which in particular have very nice strings . . .

I think that it will sound superb when played by a real orchestra, for sure . . .

For sure!

I did three versions with Miroslav Philharmonik instruments, where the first version simply replaces all the instruments with corresponding Miroslav Philharmonik instruments, with the exception that there was no Cornet, so I guessed and use the Solo Trumpet. The second and third versions have additional modifications, and they are mastered with the T-RackS 3 Deluxe VST, hence are a bit "hotter", but you can adjust the listening volume as desired. I did these while listening with headphones, so I have no idea how it sounds played through loudspeakers . . .

1ST VERSION: Replace existing instruments with Miroslav Philharmonik instruments . . .

[NOTE: I did not change any of the Notion 3 Mixer settings, so the only changes are to use Miroslav Philharmonik instruments, which in particular are the high-level instrument presets which typically are a set of different articulations grouped together where depending on the music notation one or more of the specific articulations might be played. Another way to explain the high-level instrument concept is that this is what happens when you use the Notion 3 user interface for selecting a Miroslav Philharmonik instrument, where all you see for example is "Solo Bassoon". However, if you switch to the Miroslave Philharmonik user interface, which you do via clicking on the name of the instrument in the Notion 3 Mixer, then you see the details of the high-level "Solo Bassoon" or whatever instrument it might be, and what you discover is that there might be as many as 16 different articulations, and you can watch the way the instrument is played with respect to which specific articulations as the music is playing, which is interesting to watch. Summarizing, this version has Miroslav Philharmonik instruments replacing the original instruments in the most simple way possible, although it has a Solo Trumpet instead of a Cornet, since there is no Cornet in Miroslav Philharmonik. As best as I can determine, a Trumpet is a tiny bit more brassy than a Cornet . . . ]

http://www.surfwhammys.com/La-nuit-Leila-v5-Miroslav-Philharmonik-1.mp3

2ND VERSION: Replace existing instruments with Miroslav Philharmonik instruments and make subtle tonal changes . . .

[NOTE: This is the second version, and the differences are that I used the Pultec EQP-1A3 Program Equalizer VST plug-in from T-RackS 3 Deluxe in the "Smoother" preset for the Solo Oboe, Concert Pedal Harp, Solo Cello, Contrbasses, and both Violin Sections. I also reset the Violin Sections level on Bus A to 0db, since the Pultec EQP-1A3 Program Equalizer increases the volume level to what I think it is nice level, hence no need to do it via moving the track slider above 0db, which tends to be a better way to increase volume. I have tried a variety of strategies for adjusting volume, but it tends to be easier if you set all the track sliders to 0db and make volume adjustments with VST dynamics plug-ins, since dynamics plug-ins can be set to make adjustments in a variety of ways, some of which can be graceful rather than arbitrary, although they also can do it very arbitrarily. In contrast, when you do it with the track slider then it either applies all the time or you have to move the track slider and record the track slider movements. Another advantage of setting all the track sliders to 0db is that it is easy to remember and to verify visually, since using the adage, all the ducks are in a row, which in some respects is a concept that appears in Japanese kanban manufacturing theory, where the simple version is that you do not need actually to know much about a properly designed and implemented kanban system, because when it looks correct intuitively, then it is correct. If a musician is supposed to have a chair and a music stand, then there is a chair and a music stand. If the music stand is missing, then it does not "look correct". And it is a remarkably simple but brilliant way to do things. I also removed the Predelay from the Notion 3 Reverb, since it affects timing in a subtle way, and I prefer not to pre-delay or to dampen the overall Master output, since for very rapid drums it is noticeable, which leads me to infer that pre-delay affects the timing of other instruments, and damping affects the dynamics, although you had Damping set to 0, so I did not need to change it. And another subtle change was to replace one of the Solo Trumpet subitems with a French Horn, which maps to the first part of the song being done with Solo Trumpet but the phrases in the last part of the song being done by a combination of Solo Trumpet and French Horn, which appeared to be more like a Cornet for the last part, although I have no idea specifically how a Cornet sounds. My thinking in this modification is that a Trumpet is too brassy or harsh for the notes at the end of the song, so replacing one articulation of "Solo Trumpet" with a French Horn articulation softened it a bit, where the specific articulation is "FRENCH HORN PP VIB", as you can see in the screen capture. As noted, the primary instrument is "TRUMPET 1 LP BC2", even though it is the 2nd Patch in the hierarchy, which as best as I can determine has essentially an inverse relationship with dynamic articulations . . . ]

http://www.surfwhammys.com/La-nuit-Leila-v5-MP-T-RackS-3-Deluxe.mp3


Solo Trumpet and French Horn Combination ~ Primary Instrument Is TRUMPET 1 LP BC2 (Patch 2)

3RD VERSION: Replace existing instruments with Miroslav Philharmonik instruments modify dynamics and stereo imaging. . .

[NOTE: In this version, I changed the panning to full-range for all the instruments except the two Violin sections, where I panned Violins I from -0.3R to -1.0L and panned Violins II from +0.3L to +1.0R, which puts Violins I on the left and Violins 2 on the right. And I ran Violins I through the Pultec EQP-1A3 Program Equalizer with the "Smoother" preset to get its level balanced with Violins II, since Violins II was a tiny bit louder. I also modified some of the dynamic articulations based on something I learned when I was working on flight simulators, which is that you can create the illusion of motion by starting with a very rapid but tiny movement and then just as rapidly damping the movement, so there is a quick strong attack that decreases geometrically in amplitude, which for motion basically starts the tiny floating bones in the inner ear moving and then lets them float based on the initially created momentum. My thinking on this is that there are five instruments playing the melody at different times, so I changed the initial dynamics so that each one started a tiny bit louder but them very quickly dropped in volume, where the primary purpose of the initially louder volume is to capture and focus your attention on the specific instrument playing the melody, but once you are focused on listening to that instrument the additional volume is unnecessary, so for the most part I only changed the dynamics of the first few notes and then returned it to the level it was originally. There were a few exceptions, where for example one of the Bassoon notes was very resonant, so I lowered its volume with a dynamic articulation, and the Miroslave Philharmonik Concert Pedal Harp tends to have a lower volume, so I increased the volume in the last six measures where it essentially is playing the melody with the Solo Cello, which I also increased a tiny bit. With the Solo Trumpet, I reversed the strategy, where it begins softer but gets louder, but in a way that its "soft" actually is loud, since it is a Trumpet and these tend to be loud instruments. The overall logic is that the melody should flow smoothly from instrument to instrument. And when there was significant counterpoint, I adjusted the dynamics so that it was easier to hear all the various counterpoint and harmony. Whether this can be done with a real orchestra is another matter, but it is relatively easy to do in the virtual universe where a Solo Oboe can be just as loud as a jet airplane at take-off, which probably is the reason that Oboes are near the front of the orchestra and Trumpets are more to the back. Another reason for using full-range panning is that the Miroslav Philharmonik instruments are recorded in their actual locations within a full orchestra, so if an instrument naturally is on the left, it will be on the left at full-range panning, so it is not necessary to force it to the left, since it already is there. However for headphone listening, I like to have violins on the left and right, which I do by arbitrary panning, which basically maps to moving half of the violins to the right side (audience perspective), which leaves half of the violins where they were on the left side (audience perspective) . . . ]

http://www.surfwhammys.com/La-nuit-Leila-v5-MP-T-RackS-3-Deluxe-Remix.mp3

BONUS VERSION: This version adds Vibraphone and a tiny bit of Percussion . . .

[NOTE: The Vibraphone is on the far-left and the Concert Pedal Harp is on the far-right. The Percussion is a just for a bit of somewhat subtle pizazz at significant transitions to keep the momentum flowing . . . ]

http://www.surfwhammys.com/La-nuit-Leila-v5-MP-T-RackS-3-Deluxe-Remix-Plus.mp3

Really!

For reference, I did this on a 2.8-GHz 8-core Mac Pro with 8GB of memory (8x1GB) using Core Audio rather than the MOTU 828mkII, since it works either way and I thought it might be useful to hear how it works with native Core Audio, which is the Mac OS X 10.6.6 audio system software, hence everything is done with Apple hardware and Apple Core Audio, which is what the various applications use (Notion 3, Miroslav Philharmonik, and T-RackS 3 Deluxe). In contrast, when I use the MOTU 828mkII, some of the work is offloaded from the Mac Pro to the MOTU 828mkII, which tends to make more onboard computer resources available for other activities . . .

Overall, I like some of the instruments from EWQL and the London Symphony Orchestra (N2 and N3), as well as Miroslav Philharmonik, so if I had some of the EWQL VSTI libraries I probably would use them for some of the instruments, which is the way it tends to work generally, where it is easier to get a specific TONE for an instrument when you have several VSTi libraries . . .

SURFWHAMMY WANDERS TANGENTIALLY INTO A FEW OBSERVATIONS ABOUT DONGLES:

The only problem here in the sound isolation studio is that the EWQL VSTi libraries tend to be very expensive, and as best as I can determine they require using a dongle or iLok, which I find to be completely and totally annoying, hence even if the EWQL products were free I probably would not use them, although I like some of the instruments and have considered the possibility, where for example I like the demo songs for the EWQL Fab Four and EWQL Gypsy VSTi libraries . . .

On the other hand, I ordered a copy of Reason 5 (Propellerhead), and one of their products (Record) uses a USB license device, so the problem with EWQL products is more a matter of price rather than my general annoyance with dongles . . .

Explained another way, I make an effort not to support paranoid behaviors, which in the US had reached the absurd level of every piece of fruit in grocery stores having a sticky label that provides the simple name of the fruit and its unique identifying number for check-out registers . . .

At some point, it probably will map to every grain of salt and sugar having a microscopic identifier tag . . .

Most software has some type of licensing authentication system, and some of these systems are installed onto the computer and essentially check with a licensing server every once in a while via the web, which also is annoying, but at least it does not require me to have a USB dongle attached to the computer all the time, which is fabulous . . .

Fabulous! :)

I have iLok for EWQL and eLicencer for VSL, and ZERO issues with either one of them. It’s an imaginary problem. Products with dongles are not pirated. Those without are. Period.

Also, when EWQL products are on sale, they are very inexpensive…

Surfwhammy, a big thank you for this amazing work !

Surfwhammy wrote:I did three versions with Miroslav Philharmonik instruments, where the first version simply replaces all the instruments with corresponding Miroslav Philharmonik instruments, with the exception that there was no Cornet, so I guessed and use the Solo Trumpet.

At first listen I was a little confused by the trumpet. In my Notion score, instruments names are in French, and "Cor" is the french word for "French Horn", not Cornet

1ST VERSION: Replace existing instruments with Miroslav Philharmonik instruments . . .

Even with this simple substitution, the difference is obvious on the strings and especially the cello. Miroslav's strings sounds far better.

3RD VERSION: Replace existing instruments with Miroslav Philharmonik instruments modify dynamics and stereo imaging.

This one I like very much.
I just have a small regret for my French horn...

wcreed51 wrote:I have iLok for EWQL and eLicencer for VSL, and ZERO issues with either one of them. It’s an imaginary problem.

I DO agree with you.
And EWQL is really much better than others...

Zblogny wrote:[
NB. Rendering level in Notion was quite weak, so I had to normalize it with Reaper before converting to mp3

is that normal ??