Attention:

Welcome to the old forum. While it is no longer updated, there is a wealth of information here that you may search and learn from.

To partake in the current forum discussion, please visit https://forums.presonus.com

Back working with NOTION 3

A Forum to Discuss NOTION

Re: Back working with NOTION 3

Postby pcartwright » Mon Jan 10, 2011 10:10 pm

Zblogny wrote:This works for me with Notion3 sounds, but not with GPO Instruments for Finale.


Try standard GPO (not Finale edition). I tested and it seems to work fine. GPO doesn't function like EWQL in that its dynamics are designed to be controlled by the mod wheel and thus aren't limited to dynamic specific patches (one more reason why GPO is able to compete with some of the large/expensive libraries). GPO can do some things that EWQL et al can't.
pcartwright
 
Posts: 796
Joined: Sat Dec 05, 2009 2:47 pm

Re: Back working with NOTION 3

Postby dcoscina » Tue Jan 11, 2011 1:15 am

i wasn't aware that Jarrett wasn't involved with Notion any longer. I will be returning to Notion 2.2 then as I found that better to compose and hear playback on. I know a few people that stuck with N2 and are composing lovely music on it.
dcoscina
 
Posts: 35
Joined: Fri Jun 19, 2009 5:52 pm

Re: Back working with NOTION 3

Postby Admin » Tue Jan 11, 2011 9:54 am

dcoscina wrote:i wasn't aware that Jarrett wasn't involved with Notion any longer. I will be returning to Notion 2.2 then as I found that better to compose and hear playback on. I know a few people that stuck with N2 and are composing lovely music on it.



Sorry to hear that. I know there are a few users that are still composing in 2.2...... :?

I guess "if it ain't broke don't fix it" does work in some circumstances. I know that I've stayed with versions of programs I use because of familiarity. I just don't see it in regards to Notion2 vs. Notion3.

Cheers,
kyle
User avatar
Admin
Site Admin
 
Posts: 1006
Joined: Mon May 11, 2009 7:12 pm

Re: Back working with NOTION 3

Postby dcoscina » Tue Jan 11, 2011 4:14 pm

Kyle, I wasn't sure you were still around! I guess the things that I highlighted in my earlier post are more profound issues than I led people to believe. The lack of scaling volume for hairpins is a huge problem. I also don't hear timbre affected by dynamics the same way I do in N2. These are fundamental stumbling blocks in the quest to compose realistic dynamic music. Sonic realism isn't the be-all end-all for me when using Notion but I do want the sounds to respond in the realistic manner, especially when I'm trying to shape the piece with dynamics in mind. I find this a very real problem in N3. The timp does not sound the way it should at ffff. It barely changes its sound at all from pianissimo to fortissimo. I cannot accept this since Notion's earlier version did this so well.

I'll keep checking in however to see if these strides are made. I have invested money and time into the program so I'll see what comes of it.
dcoscina
 
Posts: 35
Joined: Fri Jun 19, 2009 5:52 pm

Re: Back working with NOTION 3

Postby Admin » Tue Jan 11, 2011 5:02 pm

dcoscina wrote:Kyle, I wasn't sure you were still around! I guess the things that I highlighted in my earlier post are more profound issues than I led people to believe. The lack of scaling volume for hairpins is a huge problem. I also don't hear timbre affected by dynamics the same way I do in N2. These are fundamental stumbling blocks in the quest to compose realistic dynamic music. Sonic realism isn't the be-all end-all for me when using Notion but I do want the sounds to respond in the realistic manner, especially when I'm trying to shape the piece with dynamics in mind. I find this a very real problem in N3. The timp does not sound the way it should at ffff. It barely changes its sound at all from pianissimo to fortissimo. I cannot accept this since Notion's earlier version did this so well.

I'll keep checking in however to see if these strides are made. I have invested money and time into the program so I'll see what comes of it.



Still here!! N3's scaling volume is more moderate than N2, but I assure you that it's there.....Same thing for timbre. N2 (IMHO) was far too drastic in it's volume/timbre scaling and lead to scores that were so drastic volume-wise that you either couldn't hear or clipped the mixer.

Once again this is entirely my opinion, but you have yours as well and we're all entitled to one :)

Cheers!
Kyle
User avatar
Admin
Site Admin
 
Posts: 1006
Joined: Mon May 11, 2009 7:12 pm

Re: Back working with NOTION 3

Postby composer » Tue Jan 11, 2011 9:54 pm

I have only one rebuttal. When is Notion 4 being released? :roll:
composer
 
Posts: 30
Joined: Sat Jun 13, 2009 7:57 am

Re: Back working with NOTION 3

Postby Surfwhammy » Tue Jan 11, 2011 9:55 pm

As a bit of follow-up on articulations and dynamics, what I am doing at present is defining a formula or system for doing songs, which after doing a bit of research on the Beatles certainly appears to be one of the most important things to do, for sure . . .

For sure!

Specifically, I discovered an excellent book recently, "Recording the Beatles" (Curvebender Publishing), and it has the most extensive information on the various equipment and procedures used for recording and mixing Beatles songs of any book I have been able to find . . .

http://www.recordingthebeatles.com/

And the most interesting bit of information is that especially in the early years everything at Abbey Road Studios was done with nearly fanatic military precision, where there were highly detailed specifications and procedures for everything at what initially appear to be nearly absurd levels, which makes sense when you think about it for a while . . .

[NOTE: My general impression is that there probably was a specification somewhere in one of the Abbey Road Studios standards and practices guidelines for "pop stars" along the lines of "the lead vocalist shall stand upright facing the designated dot or indicator on the microphone at the distance of 5.5 to 7.5 inches from the microphone with eyes looking forward and shall refrain from engaging in unnecessary body movements, excessive dancing, or pointless fidgeting" . . . ]

It is easy to get the impression that the Beatles did a lot of experimenting and generally had a lot of FUN in the studio, but after reading "Recording the Beatles", I think the reality was that the Beatles essentially were told what to do--albeit in very gracious and respectful ways--where they had final decision-making authority on some aspects of songs but more in the sense of George Martin giving them several options and then allowing the Beatles to decide which option they preferred, but the recording equipment was designed, maintained, and operated by professional audio engineers who for the most part were university-educated electrical engineers, although there also were key audio engineers and mixing console operators who essentially were self-taught . . .

For example, I do not think that the Beatles discovered mensuration canon (a.k.a. "prolation canon") accidentally or intuitively . . .

[NOTE: As best as I can determine, Paul McCartney and George Harrison are singing prolation canon counterpoint to John Lennon's lead vocals (melody) in "Help" (Beatles), as well as doing a bit of standard "Everly Brothers" style harmony every once in a while . . . ]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TU7JjJJZi1Q

Instead, I think that George Martin knew about it from his extensive formal training in music theory and piano, and offered it to them as an option for some of their songs, as was the case with various styles and types of harmony and counterpoint, in general . . .

Explained another way, George Martin was the choirmaster, and the Beatles were the choir, as well as being extraordinarily rapid learners and stellar musicians, singers, composers, and lyricists . . .

It takes a while to define a complete formula or system, but my current thinking is that it is the only way to do consistent songs that sound good . . .

And this is the overview of the formula or system that I have defined, so far:

(1) Begin with what I call a "basic rhythm section", which is done in Notion 3 with music notation and VSTi instruments, where it can be as simple as a set of reference tones for tuning and a track of kick drum for the tempo (instead of a "click track"). The advantage of beginning with a Notion 3 "basic rhythm section" is that it establishes a foundation that makes it both possible and practical to do synchronized and correctly tuned orchestration later, which includes being able to switch back-and-forth from working with computer-generated music notation based instruments (Notion 3) to working with real instruments and singing (Digital Performer [MOTU]) . . .

(2) Get everything into Digital Performer, where the Notion 3 instruments are recorded in Digital Performer as soundbites via controlling Notion 3 via ReWire . . .

(3) Set all the Notion 3 instrument levels to 0db but pan them to specific locations, which is very important for doing what I call "sparkles" . . .

(4) Maintain a set of cloned Notion 3 project files, where the general idea is to use one or more clones for adding more instruments, since on the Mac there is a 50-instrument limitation for the way I do the VSTi instrument definitions, so once I get to the 50-instrument limit and have all of them recorded in Digital Performer as soundbites, I switch to using a cloned project, where I replace some number of already recorded Notion 3 instruments with new instruments and then record only the new instruments as soundbites in Digital Performer via ReWire, with the result that after a while I have a folder with perhaps 10 or more cloned Notion 3 project files, each with a new iteration of additional instruments, which is a simple but effective way to have hundreds of Notion 3 instruments, which is very important with respect to "sparkles", since I transform a single instrument into a "sparkle" and put it into motion by cloning the single instrument as many as 8 times, where I spread the notes across all 8 clones by replacing notes with equal-valued rests and by panning each of the 8 clones to a different location from far-left to far-right, which makes it very easy to play a series of notes in specific locations with great precision, which is considerably easier to do than to mess with automated panning at the individual note level in Digital Performer . . .

(5) Avoid using most types of articulations and dynamics, since among other things (a) using loudness dynamics (pianissimo, forte, and so forth) does not work with T-RackS 3 Deluxe VST plug-ins and (b) using articulations on VSTi instruments that were not recorded with the musicians actually playing the articulations does not work, where if an instrument needs to be staccato, then what works is selecting the specific flavor of the VSTi instrument where the musician(s) actually were playing the real instrument staccato when the VSTi samples were recorded . . .

(6) Compose the vocal melody in advance and play it on a piano or synthesizer in Notion 3 via music notation so that I can practice singing the melody rather than composing and singing the melody in real-time on the fly on the first and only take, which I can do but not so accurately as I imagine it at the time, where for example I sang the lead vocals for "I'm Going Goo-Goo Over Ga-Ga" (The Surf Whammys) a grand total of three times, where the first time I composed the melody in real-time on the fly as I was singing it and then sang it two more times to add a bit of harmony and to correct a few flat or sharp notes by singing sharp or flat to pull the notes on pitch, except that compensating a flat note by singing a sharp note tends to blur the combined virtual note, which then maps to the singing using too much of the overall sonic space, which in turn requires doing pitch-correcting and adjusting via the Melodyne Editor (Celemony), which works but is not so precise as actually having the melody and practicing it before I start recording the singing . . .

[NOTE: The singing is pitch-corrected and adjusted using the Melodyne Editor, and it is the first three (and only) tracks, since for the most part I do not like to do stuff over and over and over. There are a lot of "sparkles", and there are considerably more than 50 Notion 3 VSTi instruments but primarily for purposes of putting the "sparkles" into motion. This is little bit too "hot", but it is a headphone mix, and I will correct it when I switch to doing loudspeaker mixing . . . ]

http://www.surfwhammys.com/Im-Going-Goo-Goo-Over-Ga-Ga-11-28-2010-2-DP7.mp3

In contrast, this "basic rhythm section" has an RMI Electra Piano playing the vocal melody, which I composed in advance so that I can practice singing it before I actually record the singing, which I think will work a lot better than composing, singing, and recording the vocal melody in real-time on the fly . . .

[NOTE: Another difference in this "basic rhythm section" is that I gave considerably more attention to selecting the various VSTi instruments with respect to articulations, where instead of using music notation articulations I specifically selected instruments that were recorded with the musicians actually playing the articulations, which in particular makes the brass and string sections sound a lot better, since for this type of music, the fact of the matter is that in a real musical group the brass and string players must play vigorously to be heard over the highly amplified electric guitars, electric bass, synthesizers, and drumkits, so it only sounds correct to me when the brass and strings are played "hard" or whatever, and attempting to emulate "hard" playing after the fact via music notation articulations and dynamics does not work, insofar as I am concerned, because it tends to make the brass and strings sound more like a 1960s Farfisa Organ or a kazoo . . . ]

http://www.surfwhammys.com/Surrealeria-1-7-2011-ST25-XP2-N3.mp3

(7) If an instrument needs a bit of adjusting with respect to dynamic range and loudness, then I do it via one of the T-RackS 3 Deluxe VST plug-in components (Brick Wall Limiter, Opto-Compressor, or Pultec EQP-1A3 Program Equalizer) once the instrument track from Notion 3 is recorded in Digital Performer as a soundbite, since Digital Performer supports having a lot of VST plug-ins, in part because Digital Peformer by that time does not need to do all the extraordinarily computer-intensive processing that Notion 3 must do for VSTi instruments and music notation, which is another reason for keeping the music notation as simple as possible in Notion 3 with respect to articulations and dynamics, where for these types of songs, the general rule is to use correctly played native VSTi instruments with the most simple music notation possible, all pegged to 0db but panned as precisely as possible . . .

There is a bit more to it than this, but what one might call my "reference listeners" really like the the Surrealería song, and in great contrast to me, they listen at extraordinarily low volume levels . . .

And to put everything into perspective, this is what I was doing with respect to producing and mixing several years ago, which at the time was the best I could do but is not nearly so good as what I can do now after focusing for the past two years on making sense of all the things George Martin and the audio engineers at Abbey Road Studios did for the Beatles . . .

[NOTE: These are real instruments and I am playing them for the most part in real-time on the fly on the first take, and this was recorded before I realized that the microphone levels were not so stellar, and so forth and so on, which also was before I discovered how to adjust the playback headphone level so that I could hear what already was recorded, which had the consequence either (a) that I could not hear what I was playing at the time or (b) that I could hear what I was playing at the time but not what already was recorded, which in some respects was a bit mind-bogglingly confusing . . . ]

http://www.surfwhammys.com/music/05_All_I_Want_To_Do.mp3

As a general rule, when a musician does everything, the last things that get much attention are arranging, producing, recording, mixing, and mastering, but these are very important, which I finally realized in an immediately conscious way two years ago, which is fabulous . . .

Fabulous! :)

P. S. And the new system begins with the Notion 3 "basic rhythm section" as the foundation by design, because it works!
The Surf Whammys

Sinkhorn's Dilemma: Every paradox has at least one non-trivial solution!
User avatar
Surfwhammy
 
Posts: 1137
Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2010 4:45 am

Previous

Return to NOTION

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot] and 7 guests


cron