NOTION Music Forum

Hey, I was wondering why the note sounds so wrong, so I searched and found out that when I use the "unmeasured tremolo" to have the sound of the tremolo Violin in Notion, the wrong note is played. Here in this example there must be a "b" but Miroslav play an "a". So Is there something wrong with the rule file? I don't know how to edit those rules etc. because I only want to make music. So perhaps somebody has encountered the same problem and has a solution for that. I thought about editing the pitch in the Miroslav editor, but I think this is not the best solution, because if I notate a "b" then I want to hear a real "b".

This is pretty odd; I can't think of a rule that would transpose notes (there is a rule to play a fixed note). Two questions:

1. Does this happen when other notes are played? or just with this particular pitch?
2. Check to make sure the track isn't inadvertently transposed (check staff settings I believe).

Ok. This happens ONLY with this "b" note. Every other note is played right (unmeasured tremolo). Also the higher and lower "b's" are played right. But especially this "b" in that position is played wrong. I really don't know why. Can't understand this.

Do you have another host or DAW to test Miroslav? You need to see if it's only Notion, or if this problem occurs with Miroslav in other programs.

Eftwyrd wrote:Ok. This happens ONLY with this "b" note. Every other note is played right (unmeasured tremolo). Also the higher and lower "b's" are played right. But especially this "b" in that position is played wrong. I really don't know why. Can't understand this.

OVERVIEW

It happens on the Mac (Apple), as well . . .

DETAILS

Something similar happens with the Tuba in the N2 and N3 London Symphonic Orchestra (LSO) VSTi, based on my testing on the Mac with N3 (which includes the N2 VSTi library), which I did for a reply to another post, although it does not happen with the Tuba in Miroslav Philharmonik . . .

Another thing I notice is that the N2 and N3 VSTi Tuba samples do not do the "double breathing" behavior when the note is a bit higher or lower, so it appears to be unique to the range from E to A, inclusive, within that particular register (just above and below the F♯ in the N3 project), which tends to suggest that it might be a behavior associated with the mechanics of playing these particular notes, which probably maps to using a common set of valve positions and so forth . . .

However, the LSO VSTi Tuba for N2 does something in a wider range that to me sounds more like vibrato than an actual "ghost" or "spurious" note . . .

For the Tuba anomaly, one possibility is that the Tuba played in the LSO VSTi has a Blaikley automatic compensation valve system, which due to the patent being restricted to the UK makes this type of Tuba more specific to the UK and related countries, which makes a bit of sense considering that it happens with the London Symphony Orchestra (England) but not with the Miroslav Philharmonik (Czechoslovakia) . . .

Noting that I do everything on the Mac (Apple), I composed a fabulous piece for tremolo violin, viola, and contrabass, where I set the VSTi for each instrument to Miroslav Philharmonik, with the Solo Violin being set as indicated in your first post, and while I have no idea at present what "uncontrolled tremolo" might be, other than something that might happen when one first starts learning how to whammy on a Fender American Deluxe Stratocaster (a personal favorite), I did not notice any incorrect notes in the experiment . . .

This is the Windows Media Video (WMV, 463KB, approximately 21 seconds) for "Ode To A Mode" (The Surfwhammys):

http://www.surfwhammys.com/Ode-To-A-Mode-Surfwhammy-2010.wmv

And this is the Notion 3 project file for "Ode To A Mode", which is fabulous . . .

http://www.surfwhammys.com/Ode-To-A-Mode-Surfwhammy-2010.notion

Fabulous!

As you can determine from "Ode To A Mode", there is a B for the Solo Violin at the start of the 2nd measure, and it is played correctly . . .

However, I noticed that there are three diagonal lines on the note in your example, so I studied the Notion 3 palette for a while and found "unmeasured tremolo", which is a new mark for me . . .

And the problem definitely occurs on the Mac, where the note in music notation is B but what it played is A . . .

It does not happen with the two types of measured tremolo, so it appears to be unique to unmeasured tremolo . . .

I cannot tell any difference in the measured and unmeasured tremolo on the good notes, but it appears that the number of diagonals (a.k.a., "strokes") depends on the type of note, where most notes have three strokes, but eighth notes have two strokes, and sixteenth notes have one stroke . . .

And then there is the matter of demisemiquavers (thirty-second notes), which according to wikipedia require special handling to avoid confusion . . .

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tremolo#Notation

So, I did another experiment and set the Solo Violin to London Symphony Orchestra (LSO), and it works correctly for the B above C3 with all three types of tremolo (one stroke, two stroke, and three stroke), where the number of strokes determines the speed or rate of the tremolo . . .

So, my thinking on this is that the behavior is specific to Miroslav Philharmonik, since as you can determine from "Ode To A Node", the Miroslav Philharmonik strings typically do not do glissandi, which I think is a "bug" . . .

However, the London Symphony Orchestra strings do glissandi but in a different acceleration curve than I would prefer, where instead of being linear, it starts slow and then zooms at the end . . .

So, if you are using the full version of Notion 3 (rather than Notion 3 SLE), you have the London Symphony Orchestra VSTi library, and you can use it unless there is something specific to Miroslave Philharmonik that you need . . .

SUMMARY

I think this is a VSTi-specific behavior, since I confirmed it for the Solo Violin in the Miroslav Philharmonik VSTi for unmeasured tremolo, but it does not happen with the Solo Violin in the London Symphony Orchestra VSTi. . .

You might want to contract IK Multimedia and ask them about the Miroslav Philharmonik problem, but perhaps you can use a series of regular repeated demisemiquavers . . .

Lots of FUN!

P. S. This is the WAVE audio file (WAV, 4.5MB, approximately 24 seconds) for the version that has the London Symphony Orchestra Solo Violin VSTi, which is doing glissandi, which I like . . .

http://www.surfwhammys.com/Ode-To-A-Mode-Surfwhammy-2010.wav

pcartwright wrote:Do you have another host or DAW to test Miroslav? You need to see if it's only Notion, or if this problem occurs with Miroslav in other programs.

I tested it now in Presonus Studio One and there, the violin plays the right note. So I think it must have to do something with Notion.

I'm away from my main computer until late tomorrow; I'll try to replicate the issue with Miroslav on my machine when I get back in town.

Well, this must be a bug. I have the same issue as Eftwyrd; I've looked through the rules files and tried the same technique on several different instruments, and it seems that the same error occurs with all Miroslav instruments playing a tremolo on that particular B. I couldn't, however, find an issue in the rules file. The problem doesn't seem to exist for other VSTs.

Your best bet is to contact technical support and link the URL for this forum entry in your submission. Let us know how it goes.

I took a quick look at PreSonus Studio One, which included downloading the documentation, and I did not see any mention of music notation, so my best guess is that any "testing" of the Miroslav Philharmonik Solo Violin tremolo problem was done via MIDI . . .

PreSonus Studio One looks to be similar to MOTU Digital Performer (the DAW that I use on the Mac), and most of these types of applications are similar in one way or another, and some or all of them support MIDI . . .

Conceptually, I think that MIDI is interesting, but it is not something I have studied, although I am intrigued by the possibility of using MIDI to control a DigiTech Whammy pedal . . .

Nevertheless, it is useful to know that the Solo Violin tremolo problem occurs in at least a few DAW applications, separately from music notation . . .

As noted in my earlier reply, the definitive test for me on the Mac simply was to replace the Miroslav Philharmonik Solo Violin with the Solo Violin from the London Symphony Orchestra VSTi library (which comes with the full version of Notion 3), where the problem did not occur with the LSO Solo Violin . . .

However, in examining the LSO Solo Violin, I noticed two things that I think are important:

(1) There is no separate VSTi user interface for the LSO instruments, which you can confirm (a) by single-clicking on the name of a Miroslav Philharmonik VSTi in the Notion 3 Mixer, at which time the standalone Miroslav Philharmonik VSTi user interface appears, but then (b) by single-clicking on the name of a LSO instrument in the Notion 3 Mixer, at which time nothing appears . . .

(2) There is no separate "tremolo" setting for the Solo Violin in the LSO VSTi, but there are quite a few "tremolo" settings for the Solo Violin in the Miroslav Philharmonik VSTi. Additionally, it is possible to adjust various parameters of an instrument via the Miroslav Philharmonik VSTi user interface . . .

When you consider (1) and (2) with respect to what actually is happening, I think that one can make an inference, which is focused on the high-level perspective and a bit of intuitive common sense . . .

Prior to this discussion, (a) I had never heard of "measured tremolo" and "unmeasured tremolo" and (b) I had never noticed the stroke marks in music notation, so it took about 15 to 30 minutes of surfing wikipedia to make sense of this, but so what . . .

So what!

Being primarily a "play by ear" musician, I know a lot about tremolo and vibrato, and I understand the differences from the perspectives of mathematics and physics, as well as by virtue of being fascinated with the Fender two-point synchronized tremolo system of a Fender American Deluxe Stratocaster, which actually is a vibrato system, so while until very recently I had no idea how to specify this using music notation, playing vibrato on an electric guitar and knowing how it should be played on a violin (which I studied for a while as a youngster) was easy, as it is with singing (at least to the extent that a singer can do tremolo and vibrato, which usually are advanced techniques, although singing tremolo is a bit strange at best) . . .

From the perspective of intuitive common sense, this led to wondering WHY it might make sense to put "measured tremolo" or "unmeasured tremolo" marks on the notes for an instrument that already was set to do tremolo . . .

So, I did a few more experiments, where I was able to confirm that the tremolo marks (from one to three strokes either on the stems of notes that have stems or above or below the notes that do not have stems) actually do something for the LSO VSti Solo Violin, where a single-stroke maps to slow tremolo; a double-stroke maps to medium tremolo; and a triple-stroke maps to fast tremolo, although it sounds more like what I call "vibrato" than what in the electromagnetic universe is called "tremolo" (which simply is a variation in volume over time, as contrasted to vibrato, which is a variation in pitch over time) . . .

There are differences in the Miroslav Philharmonic VSTi Solo Violin when it is set to tremolo and one then puts various strokes on the notes, but the differences are more subtle than what happens when LSO Solo Violin notes are marked with tremolo strokes, so the general concept of putting tremolo marks on an instrument which already is doing tremolo is a bit strange from my perspective, although mostly because tremolo marks on an instrument that already doing tremolo is considerably more subtle in this specific instance . . .

Explained another way, from the perspective of blending or mixing a set of instruments, using subtle effects on instruments tends only to blur the instruments rather than to reveal them, hence while the tremolo marks have a subtle affect on the Miroslav Philharmonik Solo Violin when it is set to do global tremolo, I am not certain what benefit this provides when there are other instruments . . .

For example, if the desired result is faster overall tremolo on the Solo Violin, then this can be adjusted via the Miroslav Philharmonik VSTi user interface, where it is done the way one sets a tremolo effects pedal for an electric guitar . . .

If the desired result is more intimately controlled tremolo on an individual note or a series of notes for a Solo Violin that is a featured or prominent solo instrument in a section of a song, then I think it makes more sense to use the LSO Solo Violin, which can be done with multiple "clones" and panned to different locations to make it more prominent in the mix, especially when the particular genre of a song is Heavy Metal or one of its many variations, because by the time you add rapidly beating double-kick drums and a few baritone guitars playing power chords, hearing subtle differences in anything is nearly impossible no matter how skilled one might be in mixing . . .

And for reference, I added a few more measures to the "Ode To A Node" piece, which includes two "cloned" LSO Solo Violins (panned left and right, respectively), as well as one Miloslav Philharmonic Solo Violin with tremolo but no specific tremolo marks, which is fabulous . . .

[NOTE: This is the MP3 (265-kbps [VBR], 1.5MB, approximately 46 seconds) that was created from the WAVE audio file exported from Notion 3 . . . ]

http://www.surfwhammys.com/Ode-To-A-Mode-Surfwhammy-12-28-2010-N3.mp3

Fabulous! :)

This is unfortunately a bug on our end....I've reported it to development and they'll take a look.

-Kyle