NOTION Music Forum

Please see the picture and the message written on the score.

Francois2010 wrote:Please see the picture and the message written on the score.

Can you attach a score so we can hear what's going on?

Admin wrote:

Francois2010 wrote:Please see the picture and the message written on the score.

Can you attach a score so we can hear what's going on?

Sure. Here's an excerpt.

Hi Francois.
It happens randomly to me when I do lots of write-and-delete.
First, try deleting the final barline of the involved bar, then insert it again.
Additionally, respell the affected bar (bad sounding staff only)
Hope it helps.
Regards

-- Edit. It is a workaround. I see The Administrator looking for more information, maybe they can solve the bug.

fabiolcati wrote:Hi Francois.
It happens randomly to me when I do lots of write-and-delete.
First, try deleting the final barline of the involved bar, then insert it again.
Additionally, respell the affected bar (bad sounding staff only)
Hope it helps.
Regards

-- Edit. It is a workaround. I see The Administrator looking for more information, maybe they can solve the bug.

Thank you for these indications. I will do different tests. It seems that N3 begins to malfunction when you do several operations.

I downloaded the N3 project file and did a few tests after changing the tempo to 30, since at 90 it was entirely too fast for me to be able to distinguish much of anything with respect to the Tuba playing two notes instead of one note . . .

(1) The first thing I did was to remove the reverberation and predelay from the Master output in the N3 mixer, since it typically defaults to 50 for reverberation and 25 for predelay, which is a bit much, so I set them both to 0 but left the room size at 50 . . .

RESULT: No obvious change in the behavior, and I continued to hear what to me sounds like the Tuba player taking a second breath . . .

(2) Next, I switched from the N3 Tuba to the N2 Tuba, with the reverb and predelay continuing to be a 0 . . .

RESULT: Same as (1) . . .

(3) Then, I switched from N2 Tuba to the Miroslav Philharmonik Tuba . . .

RESULT: This resolved the problem of "double breathing", and I hear just a single quarter note . . .

COMMENTS

I think that this is a behavior of the VSTi library rather than N3, since it does not occur with the Miroslav Philharmonik Tuba VSTi . . .

Rather than hearing two eighth notes, it sounds more like the tuba player in the N2 and N3 VSTi libraries is taking a quick breath very soon after starting the quarter note, which is ringing a bell with respect to reminding me of something I observed a long time ago when I was in an orchestra, which might have been that tuba players do this type of breathing, since it apparently takes a lot of effort to play certain types of notes or something along this line, although the recollection is a bit fuzzy . . .

One possibility for the difference in (a) the VSTi Tuba for N2 and N3--which as best as I can determine at least for N3 is the London Symphony Orchestra (LSO)--and (b) the VSTi Tube for Miroslav Philharmonik is that the LSO VSTi Tuba is a "compensating" tuba that uses the automatic compensating system created by Blaikley, which has a patent that limits its use to England and Great Britain according to wikipedia . . .

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuba#Resonance_and_false_tones

So, the tuba(s) used in the N2 and N3 VSTi libraries might be using the Blaikley automatic compensating system, while the tuba(s) used in the Miroslav Philharmonik VSTi libraries might not be using the automatic compensating system, since being outside of the Great Britain the Miroslav Philharmonik tuba(s) probably are different, which appears to be the case no matter what the actual reason . . .

Another thing I notice is that the N2 and N3 VSTi Tuba samples do not do the "double breathing" behavior when the note is a bit higher or lower, so it appears to be unique to the range from E to A, inclusive, within that particular register (just above and below the F♯ in the N3 project), which tends to suggest that it might be a behavior associated with the mechanics of playing these particular notes, which probably maps to using a common set of valve positions and so forth . . .

It does not do the "double breathing" behavior in the N3 Tuba VSTi when the note is D♯ or A♯, but in N2 Tuba VSTi it does it in a wider range, although to me it sounds more like the Tuba player in the N2 VSTi is doing vibrato at the lower and higher ends of the somewhat narrow range . . .

SUMMARY

I think this is a behavior of the N2 and N3 Tuba VSTi libraries rather than a behavior of N3, itself, since it does not occur in N3 when I use the Miroslav Philharmonik Tuba VSTi . . .

And for reference, all my experiments were done on the Mac, so I have no idea what happens on a Windows machine, but so what . . .

So what!

I like the idea of the Tuba(s) being different in Great Britain as contrasted to everywhere else, which provides a plausible explanation for the behavior not happening in Miroslav Philharmonik, which was recorded in Prague, Czechoslovakia at the Dvorák Hall, where the instruments are played by the Czech Philharmonic Orchestra . . .

This involves a bit of intuition and inferencing, since I have no specific information regarding the specific Tuba model(s) that were used in any of the various VSTi samples, but it makes a bit of sense that if the Blaikely "automatic compensating" Tuba only is available in Great Britain, then perhaps most Tuba players everywhere else simply do not play automatic compensating instruments, hence play certain notes an entirely different way from Blaikely "automatic compensating" Tuba players in Great Britain . . .

And since I discovered this strange bit of information about the Tuba based on a fuzzy recollection of something that involved the concept of separating (a) starting a note from (b) sustaining the note once it is started--or at least doing some type of "double breathing" thing--it is interesting that this recollection led to finding a bit of factual information that might provide a plausible explanation, which is fabulous . . .

Fabulous!

P. S. My recollection of observing Tuba players is that the instrument appears to be a bit like a pedal steel guitar in the sense that playing certain notes requires a lot of what I call "extra work", where instead of being simple and straightforward like playing a note on a piano or an electric guitar, playing a particular note on a pedal steel guitar might require simultaneously pushing one or two foot pedals and a knee lever, as well as doing some type of complex steel bar and picking motion . . .

I have tried many. Unresolved.

Francois2010 wrote:I have tried many. Unresolved.

QUESTION: Are you using the Windows version of N3 or the Mac version of N3?

COMMENTS AND OBSERVATIONS

The only problem like this that I have had on the Mac was with glissandi (as noted in another post to this FORUM), but it was specific to a particular VSTi . . .

As noted, I was able to duplicate the problem you reported with the Tuba phrase, but when I switched the Tuba to Miroslav Philharmonik it did not happen . . .

Regarding Windows vs. Mac, I started doing software engineering in Windows soon after the first version was released, so when I decided to start doing computer-based music I tried to do it on Windows machines but there were so many problems that I stopped messing with it . . .

Then, several years later when Microsoft ruined Visual Basic by switching everything to .NET, as well as becoming completely and totally paranoid by adding all the quite annoying licensing stuff beginning with Windows XP, I got so mad that I did two things:

(1) I stopped purchasing Microsoft products . . .

(2) I switched to the Mac . . .

And once I got up to speed on using the Mac, which took several months--mostly because the Backspace and Delete keys are reversed on the Mac from the way they operate in Windows--I decided to see how the Mac did music stuff, and much to my surprise it was very easy . . .

One of the key differences, aside from design philosophies and so forth, is that Microsoft only makes the operating system and has little if any control over the hardware, while Apple makes the operating system and hardware, which it controls ruthlessly . . .

Another key difference, which is reflected in the price of Apple computers, is that everything is high-quality and is designed specifically to work intimately with the operating system, whereas in great contrast nothing is consistent in Windows machines and none of it is designed specifically to work intimately with the operating system . . .

Explained another way, in the Windows universe there is a "brick wall" between the operating system and the hardware, so there is no intimate interaction at the overall design level, but in great contrast there is no "brick wall" in the Apple universe, since Apple does the operating system and primary hardware, although 3rd-party stuff is done with a "brick wall", where for example Apple does not design the MOTU 838mk3 and MOTU DIgital Performer, but Apple has standards, and MOTU follows them very precisely, so MOTU products work very nicely, and the same is the case with N3 on the Mac . . .

As best as I can determine, most folks do not take the time to read detailed specifications, so what happens is that a lot of folks have the misconception that a $500 (US) Windows machine is a "bargain" when compared to an $1,100 (US) Apple iMac, but what they do not realize is that the Windows machine has a piece of junk audio processor while the Mac has a high-quality audio processor, which is the case with everything, really . . .

Really!

And by the time one upgrades everything on a Windows machine to things in the same range of quality as a Mac, the price of the Windows machine is higher than the price of the Mac, which is something one can do, but even when you do it that way in the Windows universe instead of nearly everything coming from one manufacturer (Apple), it comes from a virtual festival of manufacturers, which creates yet another set of problems for Windows users that simply does not occur in the Apple universe . . .

So, if you are using a Windows machine, one strategy is to continue using what you have but to plan to switch to the Mac sometime in the future, because it is remarkably easier to do music, video, graphic design, and so forth on the Mac . . .

If I were guessing, I think (a) that pretty much 100 percent of the people who have problems with N3 probably are running it on Windows machines and (b) that most of the problems have nearly nothing to do with N3, per se . . .

And for reference, when I was trying to get music stuff working in the Windows universe, I built custom Windows machines using the fastest and highest quality hardware available at the time, and I got most of it from the same place that a lot of Microsoft folks get their computers not so far from the Microsoft campus in Redmond, although I got the high-end power supplies from PC Power & Cooling, but it was a complete and total maze of hardware, software, drivers, firmware, and so forth and so on, and none of it worked together reliably, so what happens is that you have to talk with a virtual festival of 3rd-party vendors when there is a problem, most or all of whom tell you that it is not a problem with their particular component, driver, firmware, or whatever, which also is what Microsoft tells you, so (a) it continues not to work and (b) nobody will fix it, because nobody takes overall high-level responsibility for the problem . . .

In the Apple universe, it is very different and extraordinarily simple:

(1) If the computer does not work, then I call Apple, except that the computer works . . .

(2) If the MOTU 828mkII or Digital Performer does not work, then I call MOTU, except that these work . . .

(3) If N3 does not work, then I call Notion Music, except that N3 works . . .

So, it all "just works", and I do not have to mess with calling anyone, which lets me focus on doing music and whatever else I decide to do without be annoyed by a machine . . .

One of the stellar principles and rules defined by James Martin decades ago is that machines are not supposed to annoy humans, and this is the way it works in the Apple universe, which is fabulous . . .

[NOTE: As I recall, I think that James Martin actually used the word "bother" instead of "annoy", but no matter which word one uses the idea is the same . . . ]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Martin_%28author%29

Fabulous!

Hello Surfwhammy,

I read your response and tried to understand everything but I speak French and my English is so so .. I think I understood your message.

I am equipped with a PC and Windows 7 from just one year. It's a bit quick change of equipment.

Thank you for your interesting answers.

Surfwhammy wrote:And by the time one upgrades everything on a Windows machine to things in the same range of quality as a Mac, the price of the Windows machine is higher than the price of the Mac, which is something one can do, but even when you do it that way in the Windows universe instead of nearly everything coming from one manufacturer (Apple), it comes from a virtual festival of manufacturers, which creates yet another set of problems for Windows users that simply does not occur in the Apple universe . . .

So, if you are using a Windows machine, one strategy is to continue using what you have but to plan to switch to the Mac sometime in the future, because it is remarkably easier to do music, video, graphic design, and so forth on the Mac . . .

If I were guessing, I think (a) that pretty much 100 percent of the people who have problems with N3 probably are running it on Windows machines and (b) that most of the problems have nearly nothing to do with N3, per se . . .

Not to get too far off topic from the original post/question, but the comments above, IMHO, are complete nonsense. I'm not going to open a Win vs. Mac debate, but I am quite sure that simply switching from a PC to a Mac would not solve your problem (and it would be a very expensive test).

I've run audio software in professional settings with both Macs and Win PCs and can truthfully report that at this point in time, the two OS are equally stable for audio production. I think Surfwhammy's opinions may have had some merit 15 years ago, but they don't hold true today. However, Surfwhammy does make a good point regarding system specs; you do need to know your hardware specs and limitations, but that is true on any system you run (Mac or PC). I've had macs with limited RAM/processing power that couldn't do the job while a neighboring Win PC could and vice versa. The first rule of any audio production is know your gear; know what your sound card specs are, know what your hardware specs are, etc.

I would NOT recommend dumping the PC and buying a mac simply to resolve software bugs unless (and only if) the software were originally designed for mac and clumsily adjusted for Windows (which doesn't seem to be the case with Notion3).

I'm not trying to be combative with this post, but I honestly think that the Mac vs. PC argument misses the mark for this kind of issue.