should I get GPO?

[Dewdman42]

Since getting Notion3, I have been trying to decide whether to upgrade my GPO3 license to GPO4 in order to use with Notion. I would probably not use it otherwise as I have Kirk Hunter Diamond and quite like it. However, as of now, Notion is not setup for KH. I read a lot of confusing posts on this board about GPO4, which leads me to believe that Notion and GPO4 do not actually play together all that nicely after-all. Can some of you please comment about the usability of GPO4 with Notion, does it work out of the box or require a bunch of tweaking and/or what doesn't work right? Secondly, how would you say it sounds compared to the sounds built into Notion, which aren't too bad.

[pcartwright]

You'll definitely need to tweak the rules files to get the full use of GPO. The combination of GPO's playability controls (which are great for a DAW environment) and Notion's rules system isn't exactly ideal. The only GPO instruments that are difficult, if not impossible to use, are GPO's multi-percussion patches. GPO's percussion sounds are combined (for the most part) into single patches with multiple instruments; as such, it is impossible (at the moment) to call for a single instrument (say a triangle) and properly notate it with its own rules files. There are a few instruments that load individually (such as snare and bass drum), but cymbals, percussion toys, etc are problematic.

The woodwinds sound better than Notion's (IMHO), the brass is different but I wouldn't say one is better than the other (especially with GPO4's additional brass samples), and with a few exceptions both woodwinds and brass work well with Notion. I think Notion's strings sound a bit livelier than GPO's and the Notion expansion sounds allow more string techniques than offered by GPO. Notion's percussion is easier to work with than GPO (as mentioned above); I'm not sure Notion's percussion instruments sound better, but they are much, much easier to use. I like the keyboard and melodic percussion sounds of GPO better than Notion's.

[kelldammit]

You'll definitely need to tweak the rules files to get the full use of GPO. The combination of GPO's playability controls (which are great for a DAW environment) and Notion's rules system isn't exactly ideal. The only GPO instruments that are difficult, if not impossible to use, are GPO's multi-percussion patches. GPO's percussion sounds are combined (for the most part) into single patches with multiple instruments; as such, it is impossible (at the moment) to call for a single instrument (say a triangle) and properly notate it with its own rules files. There are a few instruments that load individually (such as snare and bass drum), but cymbals, percussion toys, etc are problematic.

i concur. if you use a daw, you'll get the most out of gpo. its capabilities in terms of "performance" are just amazing. i have the YT orchestra (kh samples), and have played with others...i just haven't seen anything that beats gpo4 for control. it's just getting notion to "play ball" that can get in the way. for the multi-percussion patches, i generally just use a normal staff if i'm really hellbent on using gpo. otherwise, i use notion's sounds (if for no other reason than to conserve ram with large ensembles).

The woodwinds sound better than Notion's (IMHO), the brass is different but I wouldn't say one is better than the other (especially with GPO4's additional brass samples), and with a few exceptions both woodwinds and brass work well with Notion. I think Notion's strings sound a bit livelier than GPO's and the Notion expansion sounds allow more string techniques than offered by GPO. Notion's percussion is easier to work with than GPO (as mentioned above); I'm not sure Notion's percussion instruments sound better, but they are much, much easier to use. I like the keyboard and melodic percussion sounds of GPO better than Notion's.

i prefer gpo's sounds over notion's (or even YT, for the most part), especially the brass. my weekend "for giggles" project dujour is a reworking of "the black hole" title theme by john barry. there is a prominent horn line, and the notion horns are far too raspy, and sound like the player is really struggling. the gpo/sam horns are stronger and much more powerful. they emulate those on the original recording almost exactly.
for ensemble brass (with minimal divisi) stuff, i've taken to loading the gpo preset in notion (sam player 1, usually), and then add the gpo/sam ensemble in the next slot (on the same midi channel and output pair), and blend them to taste with the mixer. i get really fantastic results like that.
in general, GPO's strings are more mellow, as are the non-sam brass instruments. i find that useful, and tend to prefer it, but it's a matter of taste. overall, i'd say the kh lib and gpo are pretty competitive, in terms of sound quality, with the notion sounds lagging behind somewhat. however, the gpo/kh stuff will use up much more ram, too, so the notion lib has its uses/benefits.

all that aside, have you dug around to see if anyone's already done up a rules file for your library, or looked into creating one yourself? i mean, why spend the $ if you don't have to?

k

[lazerlike42]

I'm actually not particularly impressed with GPO. I usually judge libraries by their strings, because IMO they're the instruments which one will have the most trouble finding authentic sounding samples of. GPO's strings are just not very good, as far as my ears go.

One of the bigger reasons for this, I think, is that there are no expressive sounding patches in the GPO library. Whereas with a(n admittedly higher end) library like EWQL, I can choose the Lyrical or Expressive patch for slower, flowing melody lines, in GPO I can really only get what I consider decent sounding strings with high octave doubling melodies, background high notes, and some faster passages. I also have the YT Kirk Hunter set, and I think they're slightly better than GPO's, but I really have the same problem. For most of my string work, I'd prefer either Miroslav Philharmonik strings or EWQL's. Maybe it's just a preference, I don't know. I just am usually pretty disappointed by GPO's strings. The brass also gives me problems, in that even with the SAM patches there just isn't the ability to go from mellow to powerful/raspy as there is in some other libraries. The only way to get a powerful sound from the brass is to use the section patch, and I'm just not really happy with sounding a section of horns or bones when it's really supposed to be one.

The other big thing that bothers me about GPO is that for some reason the sound always seems like its coming from one place. Even when I set up the pan to simulate instrument placement in an orchestra setup, it sounds - to use possibly too strong a word - muddled, like it's all coming from one place rather than across a stage. I don't know why this is, exactly, but it's actually I think the biggest problem I have with GPO. I think the samples are, in themselves, certainly usable if not for this.

Now I don't know what the Kirk Hunter library that Dewdman42 has compared to the YT set. Obviously, it's got more to it, but are the samples better quality? Are there more expressive sounding string patches? The cost dramatically different, so there must be something better about the actual KH library. Depending on these answers, I'd agree that it might just be better to try to find a set of rules for the KH set. Heck, depending on how good the KH set sounds, it would be worth writing rules. If you're really as happy with your KH library as you indicate, Dewdman42, I'd strongly suggest taking the time to do that. It would be well worth the time and not really all that complicated.

[Dewdman42]

The reason I asked about GPO was only because I would like something that works out of the box with Notion without a need for me to figure out all the rules. Personally I don't like the sounds of GPO that much either. I had GPO3 when it came out and at the time it was a remarkable kit for the price. But since then I've graduated to KH and much prefer its sound. For DAW use I wouldn't even touch GPO, I'd only use KH. My question here is only about enhancing Notion. If GPO is not that much of an improvement over Notions own sounds, or fiddly with the rules, then I'll just use Notion's sounds and stop worrying about it.

Regarding EW, I never liked the sounds of that lib. It does one thing, it makes that big hollywood sound, but to me it starts sounding very generic and the minute I hear a mock from EW I can tell it was EW. I chose KH because it specfically does NOT sound like everything else that was being done at the time with either EW or VSL, and still sounds great. To me it sounds a bit like an old score from the 1960's. Its more like what you would expect to hear from a classical symphony. EW has that big hollywood produced sound. If that's what you want and need then it is a good choice still. If I had more bucks and resources and time to spend on it, I would probably throw down for VSL, but its just more than I want to get into. I'd rather just stick with KH

What is the YT set you guys mentioned? I'm racking my brain to think of what Kirk did that would get YT for a name, and can't think of anything. I am using Kirk Hunter Diamond and it has AWESOME strings. Kirk Hunter is a string player himself and his strings are genius. But what is this YT you speak of?

At any rate, in terms of Notion use, I'm mostly just interested in using Notion to compose and play with ideas easily with minimal fuss about production. Most likely its not gonna be my final production result anyway. So what matters to me is best sound with no futzing around. I want to just turn it on and start plunking down notes and have it sound good. The built in sounds are pretty good, but could be better. That's why I ask about GPO. But it sounds like GPO has some issues due to compatability.

If I get some time I will try to figure out some KH rules. I already read the document about their prules and already I see some issues which might make things hard, but we'll see.

[lazerlike42]

Dewdman,

I'd actually like to get the KH set at some point. The biggest problem is that it also requires buying Kontakt. If I could get KH's stuff on its own or in another format - heck if he even made it work with the Kontakt player - I'd probably get it, or at least try to look more into getting it. I say that because, to answer your question, I have the YT - or Yellowtools - Kh samples.

Yellowtools is a sampler which offers an orchestral set that comes from Kirk Hunter's library. They work in the free version of Yellowtools, and the whole orcehstra is <$60 if I recall, so it's a fantastic deal. To my ear, they sound OK - not great - and there's unfortunately a smaller selection of available articulations. They sound better than GPO, but I don't think by THAT much - but again, a lot of that may be just because other than standard "special' articulations like marcato, pizzicato and tremolo, the only option is what sounds like a very straight, vibrato-less (or very minimal vibrato in any case) string set, which is ok for backing, but just doesn't sound good for any kind of melodic or more noticable work. I've always been curious how the quality/selection of these compares to the actual Kirk Hunter library.

As far as GPO is concerned, I think it's certainly better than the Notion samples, at least as a whole, and generally speaking it DOES play well right out of the box - at least in my experience. The only issue I've had is that the rules the Notion people have put together try to trigger legato mode in GPO incorrectly. After a lot of experimenting, I've found how to correct this with a very simple rule change. It was a lot of work for me, but it would be pretty quick and painless for you to correct.

[Dewdman42]

ah k, well maybe I'll grab it after all then. Where can I find the info I need to tweak the rules to work properly?

Regarding KH, yes, the yellowtools thing is not even close to what is in his actual Diamond package. In fact I suspect those are old samples from his older days, which at the time were still considered some of the best string samples out there, but he has gone way beyond that now. Diamond is 75Gb of highly programmed stuff using kscript, etc. He has a bunch of interesting features in his Kontakt programming such as, for example, the string sections are able to hit attack notes slightly out of tune and then come into tune, as a bunch of real players would actually do, for example. Many other cool features. His latest version, which I don't have yet, can do automatic divisi. So you are playing along and then start playing two voices and it automatically changes the underlying playback so that it sounds natural and proper going to divisi. Diamond includes sections for Concert, symphony, studio and chamber versions of everything. This yields a number of completely different sounds, depending on how intimate or big you want it to sound. one trick is to combine chamber with symphony which sounds big but also brings out some of the resin in the strings.

I don't think KH will ever make it work for Kontakt Player because that involves paying a license fee to NI. He would have to charge more for the library if he did. I need kontakt for some other stuff I got once upon a time so for me it was a simple decision and I'm not at all unhappy with it, but i understand your concern there. It does start to add up, and the KH library itself is also not inexpensive as it used to be.

[lazerlike42]

GPO has two patch sets. Both use exactly the same samples, the only difference is the programming, primarily where the key switches are. The standard set has key switches that fit into a standard 88 key setup, and so you can easily hit them while playing or program them into a DAW. The notation set has the key switches below the standard range of an 88 key keyboard, and are meant to be used with notation software.

Reasonably, Notion uses the notation patches. The error is that with the standard patches, you activate legato by holding down the sustain pedal, which in MIDI terms uses controller #64, but the notation patches use controller #68. The Notion rules use the notation patches, but send controller #64 for legato, which ends up not doing anything. The additional problem is that it's not as simple as replacing every 64 in the rules with a 68, because of something funky with GPO where 68 doesn't actually do [i]exactly[i] the same thing as 64. It does kill the attack, as it should, but for some reason all the notes sound very detached. To fix this, you need to turn up a note length feature in GPO's interface, which makes the attack-less notes now sound connected as legato should. This is activated by controller 21.

It all sounds very complicated, but in the final analysis it's simple: you just need to go through the rules and wherever you have controller 64, you need to change it to 68, and you need to add a rule to change controller 21 to a value of 108 as a prefix, and to change it back to 64 when the legato stops.

I have the exact code on my computer at home, and when I get back I'll post it here. It's not complicated at all. You can just open the rules file, do a "find and replace" replacing "64" with "68" (there are no other uses of 64 in the rules file to worry about messing up), and then go through and paste in the CC# 21 code in all the legato rules.

[Dewdman42]

ok I did it, got GPO. I will look forward to seeing your modified rules that work correctly with GPO notation mode. In the meantime, where can I find Notion's supplied GPO support? I am using full Notion3, not the GPO SLE version. I can see some VSL and EW support stuff, but nothing for GPO, am I blind? Maybe some example templates or something?

[lazerlike42]

Well, on Windows its in Program Files (or, if you have a 64 bit version of windows, Program Files(x86)), in the Notion directory, in support, and then Plugin Data (I believe - it may just be called plugins - I'm still not home yet), and then Garritan or GPO or whatever they call it.