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CC inserts

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CC inserts

Postby Flajolet » Tue Sep 22, 2009 8:34 am

Hi, I am a log time sibelius user andI am looking to substitute this notation with something that has more logic and friendly interface and is lighter on my cpu cause sibelius is simply "heavy" - while composing and the idea is in my head I can not afford to loose few seconds while waiting it to get me to next part of the screen so I have few questions :

- is the program 64bit ?
- can it use something like sibelius' panorama view
- how does it handle mod wheel changes how are they assigned in the program and also the CCs how are they assigned - sibelius clamed an easy use of those but - bull...*% it was not hard but took lots of time to assign some mod wheel or cc change - more time than it should take
In most DAW's it takes a second or two to draw graphicly the mod wheel or cc change and sibelius needed about a minute, so how does NOTION 3 do the deal ?
- Did anyone test one and the same score ( big score ) to be loaded on finale sibelius and notion 3 and to report how does each of them behave ? ( I really have some hopes for Notion 3 cause so far I really really like what i am seeing and hearing about it )
- assuming that Notion is not 64bit now - can it be confirmed that a 64bit version is being a priority for the software creators ? and in the near future such will be relised ?
Thanks in advance.
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Re: CC inserts

Postby KylePoehling » Tue Sep 22, 2009 10:07 am

Flajolet wrote:Hi, I am a log time sibelius user andI am looking to substitute this notation with something that has more logic and friendly interface and is lighter on my cpu cause sibelius is simply "heavy" - while composing and the idea is in my head I can not afford to loose few seconds while waiting it to get me to next part of the screen so I have few questions :

- is the program 64bit ?

No at the moment it's 32bit
Flajolet wrote:- can it use something like sibelius' panorama view

Yes, our Continuous View is the same idea as a Panorama View
Flajolet wrote:- how does it handle mod wheel changes how are they assigned in the program and also the CCs how are they assigned - sibelius clamed an easy use of those but - bull...*% it was not hard but took lots of time to assign some mod wheel or cc change - more time than it should take
In most DAW's it takes a second or two to draw graphicly the mod wheel or cc change and sibelius needed about a minute, so how does NOTION 3 do the deal ?


For the VST presets, everything is done behind the scenes, you don't even have to think about it. It sends all the right CC's and Keyswitches etc.. For your own custom VST/MIDI out mappings, you record those on a sequencer staff, as simple as that. Once recorded you can edit the data, overdub it or "layer" another recording on top. For the advanced users, there's also an XML file that they can edit to precisely specify the playback rules for a custom score or for the default MIDI/VST playback.

NOTION draws it after you finish the recording and it happens really fast. I have not really tested it out on long recordings, but it certainly doesn't take a minute.


Flajolet wrote:- Did anyone test one and the same score ( big score ) to be loaded on finale sibelius and notion 3 and to report how does each of them behave ? ( I really have some hopes for Notion 3 cause so far I really really like what i am seeing and hearing about it )


The XML scores I've tested are coming into NOTION for about the same time. I haven't really clocked it though, so I don't know...

Flajolet wrote:- assuming that Notion is not 64bit now - can it be confirmed that a 64bit version is being a priority for the software creators ? and in the near future such will be relised ?


Yes we have that in the plan for future versions.
Kyle Poehling
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Re: CC inserts

Postby Flajolet » Tue Sep 22, 2009 10:23 am

Thanks for the fast reply.

What I had in mind about the CC inserts was - Look at this picture - http://ardour.org/files/ardour_midi2.png notice where it says CC1 ( which was the mod wheel i think ) Notice how the user has the complete freedom to draw whatever line he wants in order to make it on no time and make it more expressive and smooth - and for a single track there could be several CC assigned so for example mod wheel panning expression portamento can be controlled simultaneously - Can this be done just as easily in Notion 3 ?
For example - I write an idea for viola snd to stard adding dynamics via the mod wheel simply by drawing such lines pointing where the mod wheel should be from 0 to 127.

Sibelius ( for example ) has so terrible way for doing that - that it almost makes you feel that it is som 1970 software technology ( which also is uncomfortable besides being hard and slow ) Sibelius made me ( and everybody else ) want to export all compositions as midi into DAWs where with a great ease they are possible to be edited for assigning CCs via drawing lines on the 0to127 table

P.S. - Please if you happened to use sibelius and have some experience with inserting CC can you compare it with the Notion 3 way of doing that ?

I really like the support here - I hate the sibelius staff - "we'll contact you in 3 days" attitude

PS 2 - Here is an example of a bit more complicated midi cc data - http://tylermazaika.com/wp-content/uplo ... utput1.jpg where several controls are inserted to a single track - tell me I can do the same thing the same way and ou got yourself a customer !
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Re: CC inserts

Postby Flajolet » Wed Sep 23, 2009 1:51 am

Around 2min 47sec of the promo video i see an example of cc velosity control, and I have 3 questions :

1 - The voice says it can be used to deine volume, velocity, and pitch bend.... can it be used for all the CCs ? cc1, cc64 ? cc 100 ? all of them ???
1.1 - can multiple ccs be used on a single track

2 - Is this the way it is graphicly done ? with those black bars on the upper side of the staff ?? No table with velocities ?? 0 to 127, if for exmple i want the cc1 on a certain part of viola solo to go from 63to90 and back several times, how is it possible to know that i am inputing the exact values ??

3 - Can work with VST effects..?? REALLY ? Does this mean that can assign My altiverb software to add reverb the same time I compose the piece ?

Also I see Notion will recognise and work with some of the "greatest" libraries for orchstra - VSL and EWQL and...miroslav ?? Do you plan on adding more libraries ? Rescently the greatest ever strings library was relised - L.A. Scoring Strings - can in the near future support for it be expected ?

Thank you in advance for the reply - looking forward for your great product

PS - Is there any 5 stringed bass included ? With some articulations ?? At least fast staccatto and sustain ?
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Re: CC inserts

Postby astinov » Wed Sep 23, 2009 9:37 am

Hi Flajolet,

My name is Lubo Astinov and I am the Product Manager here at NOTION Music. I wanted to take some time to answer those great questions you have in some more detail and specifics.

Please see below...

Thanks for the fast reply.

What I had in mind about the CC inserts was - Look at this picture - http://ardour.org/files/ardour_midi2.png notice where it says CC1 ( which was the mod wheel i think ) Notice how the user has the complete freedom to draw whatever line he wants in order to make it on no time and make it more expressive and smooth - and for a single track there could be several CC assigned so for example mod wheel panning expression portamento can be controlled simultaneously - Can this be done just as easily in Notion 3 ?
For example - I write an idea for viola snd to stard adding dynamics via the mod wheel simply by drawing such lines pointing where the mod wheel should be from 0 to 127.

At this point NOTION3 won't allow you to "draw" the CC commands, you would record them in real time. You can have several CC's at once. We do plan to have a "drawing" feature in the future however.

P.S. - Please if you happened to use sibelius and have some experience with inserting CC can you compare it with the Notion 3 way of doing that ?

I haven't played much with this in Sibelius 6, but as far as I recall, Sibelius 5 represented CC's in a string of text commands. NOTION actually draws a curve based on the values. You can have multiple CC's on a staff and you enter them through real-time recording. You can delete and re-enter as many times as you like and you can also overdub additional CC's with keeping the ones you have there.

I really like the support here - I hate the sibelius staff - "we'll contact you in 3 days" attitude.

Thank you, we're really trying to get back quickly at our customers. Another thing we have as a culture here at NOTION is frequent updates based on customer input. :)

PS 2 - Here is an example of a bit more complicated midi cc data - http://tylermazaika.com/wp-content/uplo ... utput1.jpg where several controls are inserted to a single track - tell me I can do the same thing the same way and ou got yourself a customer !

You can have multiple controllers just fine, it will not look the same way because NOTION 3 puts the CC's above the staff and you can't "draw" them , you record them. However, yes you CAN achieve the same audio output. What you will need is a MIDI device (a keyboard or a controller of sorts) that can output to the different CC's so that you can record them on your staff.

Around 2min 47sec of the promo video i see an example of cc velosity control, and I have 3 questions :

1 - The voice says it can be used to deine volume, velocity, and pitch bend.... can it be used for all the CCs ? cc1, cc64 ? cc 100 ? all of them ???
1.1 - can multiple ccs be used on a single track

The answer to both is YES! You do need a MIDI device you can record them with.

2 - Is this the way it is graphicly done ? with those black bars on the upper side of the staff ?? No table with velocities ?? 0 to 127, if for exmple i want the cc1 on a certain part of viola solo to go from 63to90 and back several times, how is it possible to know that i am inputing the exact values ??

Basically, you want to be able to specify exact values for your CC's at the moment of entry? Since you are recording CC's in NOTION3 you would then have to either use your MIDI device output reading (usually on a LCD on the controller), or if you're recording on a VST, many have input readers for the CC's. Again, currently, you don't "draw" the CC's you record them, so NOTION3 itself will not limit the input, you would have to do it.

3 - Can work with VST effects..?? REALLY ? Does this mean that can assign My altiverb software to add reverb the same time I compose the piece ?

Yes. We have had beta users tell us Altiverb 6.1 works just fine with NOTION3. I have heard though that some newer versions are less-then-stable. However, in principle, yes, you can have any VST effect on any of the inserts on any of the channels to work in real-time while recording/composing. In fact NOTION3 comes bundled with the CSR Hall module from Classik Studio Reverbs by IK Multimedia.

Also I see Notion will recognise and work with some of the "greatest" libraries for orchstra - VSL and EWQL and...miroslav ?? Do you plan on adding more libraries ? Rescently the greatest ever strings library was relised - L.A. Scoring Strings - can in the near future support for it be expected ?

Yes, we do plan to increase support for libraries. Watch out for news on this matter. :)

Thank you in advance for the reply - looking forward for your great product

Thank you so much for the great questions. I'm sure we satisfied some of your concerns, maybe we didn't quite make it on others. But in any case, even if the workflow isn't "exactly" what you are used to, I will certainly recommend giving NOTION3 a serious consideration. It is a really different piece of software and its new in a lot of major ways. Coupled with our dedication to constantly improve it I think you will be happy with the final result.

PS - Is there any 5 stringed bass included ? With some articulations ?? At least fast staccatto and sustain ?

Yes, the bass included is a 5-string bass and it supports all articulations.
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Re: CC inserts

Postby frivo » Wed Sep 23, 2009 10:03 am

I had read this thread with big interest. I use Finale, and I also miss those features. By the way, I like their Human Playback, but I wish I could edit / combine it with midi in a simple way.

My question is:
This CC-records you had described above, can we do that on normal staff (notes) or only at the sequencer staff? I prefer to make my arrangement work with real notes, but I also wish to tweak a little in midi.

When I read the user guide, I see we can convert from sequencer staff to notes. But is it possible to do the opposite? What I wish, is f.ex write 1/4-notes in the staff, but shorten them (or length them) in the midi-staff (sequencer-staff) for the playback, to make legato or staccato, without destroying the note-value. Finale has Human Playback for this, I onlye mark a note with a staccato dot, and it play it shorter. Often I am satisfied with that, but some times I also wished I could edit the length in a sequncer-staff manually. It is a bit difficult for me toexplain this in english (as a norwegian) but I hope you understand me.
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Re: CC inserts

Postby Admin » Wed Sep 23, 2009 12:47 pm

frivo wrote:I had read this thread with big interest. I use Finale, and I also miss those features. By the way, I like their Human Playback, but I wish I could edit / combine it with midi in a simple way.

My question is:
This CC-records you had described above, can we do that on normal staff (notes) or only at the sequencer staff? I prefer to make my arrangement work with real notes, but I also wish to tweak a little in midi.

When I read the user guide, I see we can convert from sequencer staff to notes. But is it possible to do the opposite? What I wish, is f.ex write 1/4-notes in the staff, but shorten them (or length them) in the midi-staff (sequencer-staff) for the playback, to make legato or staccato, without destroying the note-value. Finale has Human Playback for this, I onlye mark a note with a staccato dot, and it play it shorter. Often I am satisfied with that, but some times I also wished I could edit the length in a sequncer-staff manually. It is a bit difficult for me toexplain this in english (as a norwegian) but I hope you understand me.


At the moment the convert to notation only works from sequencer staff to notation. We're looking into the opposite, but for now it only goes one way....

-Kyle
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Re: CC inserts

Postby Flajolet » Wed Sep 23, 2009 1:48 pm

frivo wrote:I had read this thread with big interest. I use Finale, and I also miss those features. By the way, I like their Human Playback, but I wish I could edit / combine it with midi in a simple way.


Oh - I am so glad I posted here a topic that is interesting for more people - I assume that it is because of the lack of support on the discussed feature from the 2 biggest notationaRIES :D:D

astinov - First - thanks for the quick and meaningful replies ( please excuse my english of inapropriate ) From the replies i am getting i am getting an idea that composing with midi keyboard is really well supported and kind of ... you got the accent on it. But to tell you for example :

- I was more interested in composing but WITHOUT the midi keyboard, but simply inputing the notes by clicking with the mouse and with the PC keyboard - no MIDI keyboard AT ALL, So this is why i was so interested in how the CC assignment is done cause I understand Notion will be able to record whatever CCs assigned from me while playing, but what about the other way ? - If i simply write into notion few notes and after that I want to edin all the MIDI CC data - to input it to edit it and so on - I understand from your replys that this is still not possible in NOTION but the fact that you officially are confirming that you work on it is making me happy ( For example I am a long time sibelius user - and thru the years they never decided to comment announce or simply to encourage their users t owait if a certain new feature is going to be added or relised - this kind of marketing policy does not have future and by me it is harmful to the prestige of a company and their clients ) for example sibelius even till today are refusing to comment the 64 bit future of the program - well - I like it here with notion - it is basicly you ask andyou get answered asap plus facts like 64bit future and soon able to draw the CC SHOULD NOT be hided this is a very good way to assure the custumers that with this product they know that they are going somewhere - steps ahead - once again not like "some" others who change the cosmetics of the software - add a completely useless feauture and call it a new version - seriously - take a look at the new features sibelius introduced last few years.... panorama view in sib 5 and live tempo in sib 6
BUT enough for the others I really apolagise for my long angry posts in the forum - I will try to keep it simple from now on :

So - besides the complete nightmare about the CC data input in sib which made all the people to think about the GAP between DAWs midi cc inserting and notations and doing that without a MIDI Keyboard - I for one am not very good with the notes :) I am guitar player so :

- I prefer the music to be written in Tablatures which of course at the midi output will be assigned to kontakt's midi input and will hear piano viola and ...everything - CAN NOTION 3 do that ? ( I assume so but still )

- Also I for one like composing orchestral metal music ( among the usual stuff ) and because I like it a bit lowy :) I tune mu guitar to D ( re ) instead of E ( mi ) all the strings a note down, so :
Can NOTION 3 do that - edin the individual string pitch and be saved at the end given a chosen by me name

- Also I sometimes like to make my own keyswith patches for kontakt - just to make them lighter on my system so I have 3 articulations for example instead of 7. Doing this I assign new notes to be keyswitching for the different articulatons so there is another think I liked to do and I want to know is it possible to be done in NOTION 3 - can I make a custom guitar tablature with 5-6or 7 strings customply tuned and add an EXTRA strings with a completely unortodox tuning verry low or verru high note and use it as a keyswitch assignment bu writing on it the nomber of the fret ( the note ) ant it trigger the articulation which responds for the certain note ( I once again assume this is easyly done but still I prefer to be sure )

Well, that seems to be all i could imagine at the moment that I would like to know that concerns my personal needs : no midi keyboard ccs ( you already said in the future will be able to be drawn ) - the guitar strings edit ( the tunings ) and... the stuff I wrote above. Thank you so much for your time guys - I wish you big success with your product.
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Re: CC inserts

Postby iamnemo » Wed Jul 25, 2012 11:30 am

Lubo wrote (3 years ago):
At this point NOTION3 won't allow you to "draw" the CC commands, you would record them in real time. You can have several CC's at once. We do plan to have a "drawing" feature in the future however.

Is there one now? Or, at least, can I insert one CC value in a track without using a MIDI controller?

I need to set the value of the modulation wheel in Garritan to max value at the beginning of each track using their instruments to be able to listen what I have inputted in Notion3. Thanks!
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