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NOTION 3 "wish list"

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Re: NOTION 3 "wish list"

Postby Unfinished » Fri Jun 12, 2009 7:14 pm

Can't you do that already be selecting the group of notes, right-click, 'Add Special...', and add or replace articulations on all of them?
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Re: NOTION 3 "wish list"

Postby frhornplayer » Sat Jun 13, 2009 1:22 am

WOW!! Thanks Unfinished... I've been using Notion for 2 years and I never knew this...

Geeze.... :)
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Re: NOTION 3 "wish list"

Postby composer » Sat Jun 13, 2009 8:26 am

There really are many things that Notion could do to improve its product. A lot have already been mentioned, but in random order:

1. Tuplet entry must be improved. Despite all the tutorials and various ways to create them, it just doesn't work. I still get 'red notes', even for a simple tuplet like a triplet. One cannot audit the bars line in a score with tuplets as 'rhythmic' gobbletygook ensues. Oftentimes, one cannot add another note after a tuplet in the instrument with the tuplet without the gobbletygook appearing.
2. Key signatures should automatically apply to instruments added to the score during the compositional process.
3. Non Pitched percussion instruments shouldn't transpose during a global transposition. Oftentimes, this means they don't sound or sound incorrectly. Currently, one needs to hide them to prevent this.
4. Trills should transpose properly. Currently, they don't. After a transposition, a flat trill can become a natural trill, yet Notion doesn't use the key signature information to determine this. It's still a flat trill. The outcome there is that it sounds wrong or doesn't sound at all.
5. Some instruments are said to be out of range after a transposition, when they aren't. This happens often with Bass Clarinet, E-Flat Clarinet and English Horn.
6. There is an error in the program with transposition. Oftentimes, the semitones are ignored, as is information from the key signature. The end result there is often a whole tone transposition, when a semi tone is needed. With key signatures, one can easily get into the land of enharmonic hell. I'm tired of changing double sharps in the score.
7. Decaying to ppppp can often result in artifacts in the .wav file. One should be able to just choose fade out and have the music decay properly. Having to manually do this takes time as artifacts create distortion and lessen the effect.
8. Having the ability to increase or decrease the volume of the entire file via dynamics entered would be very helpful. I'm not talking about the mixer, I am talking about being able to increase/decrease via a percentage, the written dynamc and aural sound of the notated dynamics already entered in the score. One can already to do this some degree in the mixer, but having this option would be helpful. Here's why: if one composes a section of a piece too quietly or loudly the only way to currently remedy this is by manually changing the dynamics in that section. The mixer globally does this. Composers tend to write in sessions and not in one fell swoop. Oftentimes, when I return to a piece on which I am currently working, I find that one section of the file is too quiet. Being able to highlight a section and then to turn up or down by percentage the volume of the highlighted section would be helpful. I realize that this would cause problems with the samples sounding correctly(a French Horn in the basement 'mp' is a different sample than a French Horn in the basement 'mf'), however re-tweaking a few samples is much easier than totally rewriting the entire dynamics in the entire section.
9. The brass samples still need attention, especially the trumpet.
10. The ability to purchase via CD or as an online download higher bit rate samples would be great.
11. Improved spatiality is needed. Although one can move and position the sound, the program is rather monoaural. Getting a realistic spatiality is hard.
12. More options in the area of ambience would be nice. Abbey Roads studios has a wonderful sound, but it's quite dry overall(even at 100%).
13. Can we have a C score option, please?
14. Having ledger line space that is typical to the instrument(i.e. space below-Clarinet, space above - Piccolo) already present in the software would be nice. Not having to add ledger line space each time with each system would be helpful.
15. Color options for the background would be helpful.
16. The ability to use other sound libraries other than just the LSO samples would be awesome. Notion sounds are quite good, but can't complete with other libraries in many ways. Composers want the best sound possible. I want a software that doesn't just work from a compositional point of view; I want the entire package. Notion could be the one, if the sample bit rates and quality were higher.
17. The Xylophone sample and some other percussion instruments(Bell Tree) are way too loud. I routinely turn the Xylophone down to 25%.
18. The string section sounds synthy when performing fast passages.
19. There needs to be more vibrato in the solo string samples.
20. The A Clarinet is really the B-Flat Clarinet sample with the extra semi tone, yet the A clarinet has quite a different timbre as compared to the B-Flat Clarinet. It is less bright overall, and much darker in the chalumeau register. There should be a separate sample for the A Clarinet.
21. Notion needs to address printing options. Currently, it is convoluted and time consuming to get a score to print properly. A 'print to .pdf' option is needed.
22. Expanded sound kits are no longer being released. Are we to expect incomplete instrumentation with this software? Non Western, Ethnic instruments, exotic instruments, voices would all be helpful.
23. Having the score point to the middle of the page is anti-musical. We read from top to bottom. Constantly having to move the cursor to the top is frustrating.
24. Having the Non-Pitched Percussion list be in alphabetical order would be helpful. Currently, there seems to be no rhyme or reason to the order.

There's a few suggestions.

Notion is alot of fun with which to work, but there are many, many things it can and should be doing to improve its software. However, it's been well over a year since the last update and release of a new sound kit. If Notion truly wants to REALIZE MUSIC, then it needs to constantly improve its product and constantly move forward. The music software industry is constantly moving forward with new software, new options, better tools and such. If Notion is to remain competitive(and solvent), it needs to more aggressive in getting this remarkable product out there. It would be a real shame to see Notion go the way of the dinosaur. [/color]Image
Last edited by composer on Wed Aug 25, 2010 2:44 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: NOTION 3 "wish list"

Postby Unfinished » Sat Jun 13, 2009 11:22 am

I completely agree with that.
With the tuplet/triplet entry I have found that if you have a rest after an incomplete tuplet and try to complete the tuplet then Notion puts it into a new tuplet and creates some more tuplets of only rests. It's rather odd.
2) has annoyed me several times in the past... this must be fixed! (Adding instruments to a score results in those instruments acquiring the key signature shared by the rest of the the score (/the majority of the score).
5) is similar (especially with the celeste? do you have recordings which should be out of range?)
To add to that, I find when you transpose into a new part which is out of range, leave it as is, then transpose up 1 or more octaves into range, Notion sometimes says it's out of range (I think it is because it considers the part still to be in the old instrument until you in some way refresh Notion (ie. select and de-select something) before transposing into what should be within the part's range.
I'm not sure what 7) is on about (artifacts?) I agree with 8) though I find that increased precision isn't exactly necessary as there can be such little difference between mf and mf+. I sometimes find it annoying how weak the dynamics can be on an orchestral scale, where in normal situations you would put your key theme a dynamic higher than the rest and that would do, but on Notion you have have to make it several dynamics higher. I don't really care to have the dynamics different from what you see (ie. playing fff but shown as f), but maybe you could make the higher dynamics a little stronger?
One problem I'd like to add to this list is that when you set a dynamic, you might want p to be played as p- (but shown p). To do this, you have to get the dynamic entry down to p and then on the list where you select p-, you have to scroll down to it. There are so many choices that it is quite inconvenient, and most of the time you won't make it actually play much louder/quieter than the dynamic you represent, so please make it so that whatever dynamic you select, if you then click on the list, it goes straight to that dynamic so you don't have to search around the list for it.
Does 13) mean that you don't have to deal in different keys on the master score?
Does Notion come with an option to print parts separately or is that another improvement? You should be able to go on the print options and say you want 2 clarinet parts, 2 oboe parts, 6 flute parts and so on. (Make sure if you do this it prints using the right key for the part as it might get confused if 13) is what I think it is).
I agree with the Xylophone and bell tree dynamics in 17) but I find that their dynamics are good when dealing on quite a large scale, so maybe Notion 3 should take into account how large the instrumentation is and alter the parts' overall dynamics to account for this?
I completely agree with 18) and 19).
As far as 11) is concerned, I think I know what it is talking about:
I have in one piece a few bars following the pattern of ending the bar on two thirty-second notes where a crotchet = 76 bpm. These two short notes move into a trill and as far as the spacing is concerned it sounds awful (though a little subtle) I've put an attachment of this example and it might be the slur but maybe something can be done about it? My problem here is that although I've made it ff, it's pp in my piece and the two short notes sound a little harsh/accented and doesn't seem to move into the trill as much as it stops as the trill starts. The trill also ends as the next note begins, so bringing me to my next suggestion.
I think that crescendos and diminuendos should be able to start and end where ever you want them to (unless trying to start on a rest) so in this case I would put a diminuendo right at the end of the minim.
Another thing is with hidden dynamics and markings. Although they are hidden, they still are there in a sense as Notion makes room for what you can't see. The problem is that if you want to dim. to ppppp, though for it not to be seen, you don't want the dim. to look small and a big gap for no reason to appear between the notes concerned. What should happen is that the ppppp should be there, but when you use the tool to see it, it will be overlapped by the rest of the score (ie. no gap). It might look a bit messy but it's supposed to be hidden anyway.
Does anyone else find the trumpet too loud unless dealing on a large scale orchestra? I doubt much can be done but (particularly in Solo strings I) music is played like a cold fact rather than a deeply felt emotion. There seems to be little warmth in a lot of it.

Hopefully you will be able to solve all or most of the problems and make the improvements in this thread.
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Re: NOTION 3 "wish list"

Postby astinov » Mon Jun 15, 2009 2:13 pm

Hello everyone,

I'm Lubo Astinov and I'm the Product Manager for NOTION Music. I just wanted to post a quick note saying thank you for all the feedback, it really does count and we are very happy to say that your requests serve as confirmation of the direction we have been going for the many months of development.

NOTION3 is very much going full speed ahead with many exciting features and the vast majority of your requests being covered :) Judging by the lists people have on this forum, I'm pretty sure all of you will be very pleasantly surprised with many things in NOTION 3. I know that we have been scarce with the specifics and details about the features and functionality, but it will only get more and more to the point from here on.

Expect to see news and please continue checking back here and posting - this is the one way to ensure we will hear what you have to say.

Thanks and talk to you soon.


Lubo Astinov
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Re: NOTION 3 "wish list"

Postby Crescendo » Tue Jun 16, 2009 12:42 am

When can we expect to see NOTION 3??
Any estimated arrival date??
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Re: NOTION 3 "wish list"

Postby scarter » Tue Jun 16, 2009 12:02 pm

I'd like an easier way to change the tempo for playback. I use Notion in my teaching, creating backing tracks for my students to play along with. I'd like to be able to, say, click on the tempo indication and quickly change the quarter-note-equals value.

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Re: NOTION 3 "wish list"

Postby Unfinished » Tue Jun 16, 2009 3:42 pm

So for what ever reason, nobody at Notion can say when anything might happen or what that might be, with the indication that Notion 3 has been being made over the past "many" months and is nearing completion. At the risk that this suggestion may have already been implemented into the new design, I shall suggest another two improvements:

Firstly, the 'N-tempo' feature is quite a unique selling point and it gives Notion an edge that competitors don't have (do any?). However I never use N-tempo, and such an act seems unthinkable in faster pieces especially due to 3 flaws:

1) I experience a short delay between tapping the key and having it played out loud. This means your mind has to try and separate the timing of what you hear from interfering with the speed at which you tap, though you obviously have to react to the music in order to make your performance more life-like. This is a huge problem in fast music because the faster you tap, the more attack is given to the sounds. It is very easy to notice an unsteady speed in a driving piece which means N-tempo is far worse than the tempo markings you can command the performance to follow (flawlessly), even if as a conductor you would prefer a little rubato.
This may only feature on my computer and be localised to systems with little processing power or whatever, but it would be good if there were a way to minimise the delay.

2) The 'N-tempo' feature does not (as far as I can see) acknowledge written tempo changes. The system in Notion 2 is simply that it forms the average speed of the recent tapping and by which finds out where the notes should probably go in between the taps. This is a problem when you want to simply change tempo, perform a pause, rit/rall or accel. I would think it would be quite simple to work out that when trying to give a realistic performance, Notion should see that you have written a sudden increase in tempo, so should 'reset' its average and perhaps depend on the tempo marking you have written. Notion should see a rit or rall and gauge the rate at which it needs to slow down.

3) Human error prevents a steady speed from being sustained the whole time, which Notion 3 can't change, but can avoid. I have 3 ideas for solutions to human inconsistencies which are not desired:
a) The person who is using N-tempo should be easily able to phase in and out of using the feature. I'm quite sure you don't have this already, except for being able to start the piece at the written speed and press a button to show the computer you are about to give the speed manually. The specifics are not very clear and I still am not quite sure how long after the first tap you start doing it yourself - I think if you are supposed to tap every beat and you first tap on the first beat, then you start manually entering the beats on the 3rd beat. I think it makes sense that the person in this role should be able to press a button to stop dictating the beats and let the written speed carry on (for example just before the tempo is about to change). This would allow awkward places for N-tempo to be avoided and desired places to be used in.
b) The human is made less responsible for the performed time, meaning the human would influence the speed, but the performance follows the music speed directions as well. This could be given as an option as to the extent that this would be performed, so you might have a continuous degree in a slider (ie. 41.9% human, 58.1% computer) - though I'm not sure how the specifics of that might work. Alternatively you might have a category degree setting (which would mean you could decide whether in a certain category the n-tempo feature might hit a beat before the human or to what extent would it follow the rit if the human doesn't slow down). Slightly ambiguous but still an idea.
c) The human is still responsible for the performance, but the error taken out of the performance. This could not be done live, so using this option would still mean the problem features when you help performances fill in missing performers. There are probably many ways to do this, of which I have 2 ideas:
i) The human goes through the piece in N-tempo as many times as they like and an average of some sort is created for the piece, so any inconsistencies should be worked out of the final performance recording.
ii) The human goes through the piece in N-tempo either once or many times, and is given an active role in the editing of the N-tempo performance. This would mean they would somehow be shown their n-tempo performance (or performance average) and would be able, for example, to correct the point at which they start lagging behind.

Another thing about N-tempo is that it would be much easier if when creating an N-tempo staff or simply recording in N-tempo (even if the staff is not shown) they were given the option to choose the extent at which they input the tempo, by which I mean they would have the choice to input a beat every bar, crotchet, quaver, semi-quaver etc. rather than having to copy/paste in loads of semi-quavers into the N-tempo staff.

Secondly, a smallish collection of thoughts:
I find the rolls (percussion) tend to be too quiet compared to the individual strikes (try a forte timpani roll with an orchestra) and in general the snare drum (I haven't yet got any exp. percussion kits so I'm talking about the one you're given with the product) is too weak, especially on accents/marcato.
My computer (mac mini) may not be that powerful and when dealing with large scores, big sounds and probably a lot of resonance and ringing to think about, it often hesitates in trying to play back the score. I don't mind this, but sometimes when you try and play back through an entire section, the computer cannot play for more than a split second before stopping for a short while and starting again (and stopping and so on). It would be much simpler if it could take a lot longer to think about it (buffer and whatever) then deliver the score without such hesitation. In these circumstances, I find that even if you press the stop button as soon as hesitations occur, it may take up to (and perhaps beyond) 20 seconds to actually stop playing.
Maybe Notion should have a little box in the bottom right-hand corner with the most common notes from a semibreve to a semi-quaver, as well as a dot button to cycle through the number of dots added to a note (same as pressing d). This might be preferred to the process to pressing the shortcut keys. Although I find the process of either finding the notation marking you need in one of the boxes or the process of pressing a shortcut key (/combination) is adequate, a friend considers this to be one flaw in Notion.
He also thinks Notion is not as 'industry-standard' as other softwares, preferring Sibelius or perhaps Garageband to create music (despite admitting that Sibelius sounds rubbish and costs a lot more). He thinks this because these applications are more versatile in terms of importing scores, importing wav. files and creating a score based on it, exporting scores into other formats and just generally not being as well-known.
I know you said in the old forum that you would not venture into being able to provide any kind of voice, but it would be a great benefit if you did, whatever the quality. Even if this means being able to somehow incorporate other software's voice sounds into Notion - eg. Eric Persing's Choir samples (a good library with interesting vocal efx as the woooh, oooh, aaah and various screams by males and females generally used in horror movies for the sense of thriller they give out) (they aren't that scream-like).

I think that's about all, :)
Thank you.
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Re: NOTION 3 "wish list"

Postby frhornplayer » Tue Jun 16, 2009 11:54 pm


Being a N-Tempo "performer" myself and having scored and performed quite a few shows, I can honestly tell you that most of the features you are wondering about actually do exist.

1. Check your audio driver. If it is running in ASIO - you are going to want to check the buffer. To high of a buffer can result in a bit of a delay. Switch it down to about 15 ms and that should fix the delay issues.

2. Notion will anticipate tempo changes by using the resume tempo/capture tempo feature. You still need to add in your markings and it will keep from having audible anomolies in the performance.

3. I think I am understanding this correctly... Notion has a "cruise control" (if you will). At any time during the Ntempo performance you can hit any key on the zxcvbnm,. row. The performance will carry on at the selected tempo until you come back in on the home row. You are right that human error is still a possibility but thats all part of the live experience now isn't it?? :)

Now of course I am speaking of Live performance (in a pit) when I talk about these features so they may or may not apply to you. One thing I can say without a doubt is that I have used other orchestral enhhancement products and Notion is my favorite. Once some of the features I have asked about in previous posts are implemented (soon :D) it will really exceed anything else out there!!!
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Re: NOTION 3 "wish list"

Postby Unfinished » Wed Jun 17, 2009 12:48 pm

WOW!! Thanks Unfinished... I've been using Notion for 2 years and I never knew this...

Most of the features you are wondering about actually do exist.

Now we're even :lol:

So if the pressing any button on the middle row is controlling the beats that N-tempo is playing and pressing any button on the z-m row ('bottom' row) is to toggle whether N-tempo or Even tempo is being used, it should definitely be in the video about N-Tempo in Notion.
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