Setting treble and bass clef cross over

[pblais]

Hello
My name is Pierre and I am new to Notion and this forum.. Not new to Presonus though

I don't know how to describe my question other than what I wrote in my subject line.
Right now if I do step recording with my MIDI keyboard and play notes well below "middle C", Notion just appends small staff lines onto the treble clef where it then places my notes.
I would like it to start placing notes below middle C into the bass clef staff.
Is there anyway to tell Notion onto what clef to place notes?

Thanks in advance
Pierre

[Admin]

It's coming. This is a feature that we have been talking about for years. It is on the way.

-Admin

[pblais]

Great

Is there anyway that I can force Notion to place notes on the bass clef in the interim?

Thanks

[Surfwhammy]

Is there anyway that I can force Notion to place notes on the bass clef . . .

I am doing some experiments to discover the rules, but there is at least one way to cause MIDI input to be specific to a bass or treble clef, and this is based on the primary rule, which is that absent doing anything to the contrary--if there is anything one can do to the contrary, which at present I do not know--MIDI input goes to the currently selected staff . . .

Consider the following example, which due to my somewhat nebulous skills as a pianist began with the idea that I would channel George Gershwin, since he actually could play piano, but somehow wandered into channeling Arthur Schoenberg who transformed the Surfwhammy version of "An American in Paris" to "A Lunatic in Bedlam", but this is the way it often works here in the sound isolation studio . . .

[NOTE: The interesting aspect of this YouTube video is the CueMix FX (MOTU) real-time analysis, done by the Phase Analyzer and FFT Analyzer at the bottom of the screen, which clearly shows that there is plenty of subsonic and deep bass in these three NOTION 4 native virtual instruments, although the bowed Double Bass is enhanced with Timeless 2 (FabFilter Software Instruments) to give it a bit more texture and sustain, and the Master stereo output track is enhanced with Saturn (FabFilter Software Instruments) using the "VariSaturator" preset to reveal more of the raw tonality and texture. I also adjusted the true stereo panning to move the two Grand Pianos to the center and around the center, where Grand Piano 2 is panned to {-3L, +3R}, but Grand Piano 1 is panned {-5L, +5R}; and the bowed Double Bass is full stereo, hence is positioned wherever it was when it was recorded and then digitized . . . ]

"Opus 22 ~ Dueling Grand Pianos and Tormented Double Bass" (The Surf Whammys) -- YouTube music video

The MIDI input sequence began by selecting the bass clef of the "N4 Piano 1" grand staff and then playing some lower range notes; and all the notes were placed on the bass clef staff . . .

Then I did a second MIDI input but selected the treble staff of the "N4 Piano 1" grand staff and set the "Split point" for NOTION 4 MIDI recording to E4, which at least in theory should put some of the lower notes on the bass clef staff, which it apparently did, but since it appeared to be additive, I copied all the notes on the "N4 Piano 1" to the Clipboard and then did an "Undo" for the second MIDI input, which returned the "N4 Piano 1" grand staff to the way it looks in the YouTube music video . . .

After doing this, I created a new grand staff and assigned the NOTION 4 Piano to it, followed by copying the music notation in the Clipboard to it, with the result being what you see on the "N4 Piano 2" grand staff, complete with red notes, since by the time I did the second MIDI input my fingers were warmed-up, and NOTION 4 correctly recognized that I was playing some pretty "hot" stuff . . .

Then, I created a single staff and assigned the NOTION 4 Solo Double Bass to it, followed by copying the music notation from the "N4 Piano 1" bass clef staff to it, since I think that a bit of bowed double bass enhances just about everything, really . . .

Really!

THOUGHTS

This is one way to solve the problem, and it is easy to do, where the key is to play the bass line separately in one MIDI input recording, followed by playing the treble line separately in another MIDI input recording, with each MIDI input recording be done to a different staff . . .

You can experiment with the "Split point", which appears to do something, although I need to do a few more experiments to determine exactly what it does, but it is there, so it probably does something . . .


NOTION 4 MIDI Input Recording Configuration Panel

Doing a bit of thinking outside the box leads one to imagine an intriguing experiment, which is based on the possibility that an advanced MIDI keyboard like the KORG Triton Music Workstation (88-Keys) has the functionality required to split its MIDI output to different MIDI channels, where for example notes below "Middle C" (a.k.a., "C4" in US standard scientific pitch notation) might be sent to MIDI Channel 1 while notes from "Middle C" or higher are sent to MIDI Channel 2 . . .

If that is possible, then it might be possible to route the two arbitrarily "split" MIDI channels to different staves in the same way that one can route the generated audio from a VSTi virtual instrument that has multiple channels, which we know works . . .

And after doing the experiment, the results are as follows:

(1) Since I did this on the Behringer UMA-25S mini-MIDI keyboard, which cannot be split, I used the aforementioned "Split point" set to "E4" (see above), and nothing happened on the two additional blank staves I created and assigned to "Channel 1" and "Channel 2", which are not shown in the YouTube music video, since there was no music notation on them, so I made them invisible . . .

(2) However, since I selected the treble clef staff of the "N4 Clavinet" grand staff, the notes that were E4 or higher were placed on the treble clef staff, while the notes lower than E4 were placed on the bass clef staff, which is what the "Split point" parameter determines . . .

From this experiment, I make the inference that if this is not working when "Middle C" is selected as the "Split point", then it certainly is working when the "Split point" is set to "E4", hence it might be either (a) done this way by design or (b) a curious bug . . .

This is the new version of "Opus 22 ~ A Lunatic in Bedlam" (The Surf Whammys), and the music notation for the "N4 Clavinet" was played on the Behringer UMA-25S mini-MIDI keyboard all at the same time in one pass, and the splitting was done automagically by NOTION 4 running in 64-bit mode on the Mac Pro here in the sound isolation studio, which for reference is running Mac OS X 10.9 (Mavericks) . . .

"Opus 22 ~ A Lunatic in Bedlam" (The Surf Whammys) -- YouTube music video

Unless I do not understand the question or what you are trying to do, I think the "Split point" parameter is working at least (a) on the Mac and (b) when it is set to "E4" . . .

There are a few other possibilities, one of which is that it only works when you assign a NOTION 4 native virtual instrument to the treble clef of grand staff for which you want the treble and bass notes split . . .

Or perhaps it only works correctly on the Mac, which certainly is a possibility . . .

And I did yet another experiment, where this time I created a grand staff for the NOTION 4 Harp and made a YouTube music video of the notes I played on the Behringer UMA-25S being recorded as MIDI Input where the "Split point" selected for NOTION 4 MIDI Input Recording was "Middle C", and based on what I see, everything below "Middle C" correctly was placed on the bass clef staff of the NOTION 4 grand staff, while the notes beginning with "Middle C" and going higher correctly were placed on the treble clef staff of the NOTION 4 grand staff for the NOTION 4 Harp . . .

[NOTE: The step where the MIDI input is converted automagically to music notation happens nearly instantly, but if you pause the YouTube music video at approximately 1:35, you can see the music notation and how the notes are split with everything below "Middle C" put on the bass clef staff of the NOTION 4 grand staff. And I think it might be important to select the treble clef staff of the NOTION 4 grand staff before you start the actual MIDI Input Recording, as shown in the YouTube music video, where the steps begin with selecting the staff and then clicking on the red dot button to display the MIDI Input Recording Panel, and so forth . . . ]

"Opus 22 ~ A Lunatic in Bedlam" (The Surf Whammys) -- Recording MIDI Input for the NOTION 4 Harp -- YouTube music video

ADDITIONAL THOUGHTS

If you are not using a grand staff, then this certainly can explain what you are observing, which is the case because with only one staff there is no other place to put the MIDI notes that you input, regardless of whether they are split . . .

As best as I can determine, the "Split point" option works for a grand staff correctly on the Mac, which is fabulous . . .

Fabulous!

~ ~ ~ Continued in the next post ~ ~ ~

[Surfwhammy]

~ ~ ~ Continued from the previous post ~ ~ ~

Apparently, I did not pay so much attention to the "Step-Time" aspect of the problem, since (a) this is not something I do very often for a keyboard instrument and (b) for the most part it makes no sense . . .

[NOTE: It could make sense for melody or counterpoint when combined with cross-staff beaming, and I suppose that chords with a wide range of pitch separation might be easier to read if the notes are shown on two staves rather than one, but with the exception of cross-staff beaming, MIDI Recording does all that stuff, including providing the required rests and so forth . . . ]

Nevertheless, I did a few experiments, and the advice at the start of my first reply works nicely, which specifically is the primary rule that MIDI input goes to the staff which is selected, and I think this is a good solution for "Step-Time" MIDI Recording, which by definition is not time sensitive . . .

Since a grand staff has two parts (treble clef staff and bass clef staff), you can record on whichever staff you prefer simply by clicking on it with the mouse, and I did some experiments to verify this on the Mac . . .

If you want notes to appear on the treble clef staff, then select it with the mouse by clicking on it, and the notes you enter go to that staff . . .

If you want notes to appear on the bass clef staff then select it with the mouse by clicking on it, and the notes you enter go the bass clef staff of the NOTION 4 grand staff . . .

MORE THOUGHTS

If you experiment with using the mouse to select the treble or bass staff of a NOTION 4 grand staff, then the rules will become obvious after a while . . .

(1) If there are no notes or rests in the measure of the staff that you click when in "Step-Time" MIDI Record mode, the notes start at the 1st beat of the measure, but if notes already there, then the next note goes after the last note in the measure for that staff . . .

(2) You can input the notes for the treble clef staff first and then input the notes for the bass clef staff notes second for the same measure, or you can do it starting with bass notes first and then do the treble notes second . . .

(3) You can switch between staves on a NOTION 4 grand staff without exiting "Step-Time" MIDI Recording . . .

(4) Since you need to use the keyboard to enter rests and to change note durations, there already are a lot of separate user interface actions happening, so it does not add significant overhead to use the mouse to determine the staff where the notes played on the MIDI keyboard are placed . . .

And after pondering this for a moment, I am not certain there is a way to automate "Step-Time" MIDI Recording where notes are split among the two staves of a NOTION 4 grand staff, since doing so would require making too many presumptions . . .

For example, if you do a split, then what happens when the right hand plays a note but the left hand does not play a note?

Does the bass clef staff get a rest while the treble clef staff gets an actual note of the same value as the bass clef staff rest?

How would you hold a note between steps?

And what happens for example when you play a series of eighth notes all of which are split to the treble clef staff but then starting at the third beat, you play a bass note?

Does the bass clef staff retrospectively fill with a two-beat rest, so that the actual bass note starts on the third beat?

By the time you discovered the set of rules required to make it at least somewhat intuitive, you probably could teach yourself how to play with both hands . . .

Lots of FUN!

P. S. If there are any voting opportunities, my vote is to do cross-staff beaming first and then to do a few other things next before switching focus to "psychic step-time" MIDI recording . . .

[pblais]

I can play with both hands

[Surfwhammy]

I can play with both hands

Excellent!

I apologize for the misunderstanding, but I tend to use "you" in several ways, and in the last few paragraphs I was using it in a general sense . . .

Personally, I can play piano with either hand reasonably well, but playing different things on piano with both hands at the same time is not easy for me, so when I need to do this, I do something simple with one hand and focus on the other hand for the more complex stuff; but for me the best strategy is to do parts in layers, where the curious aspect is that I can play a melody, chords, or bass lines with both hands but only one of these at a time. The difficult aspect is playing a melody and chords; playing a melody and bass line; or any other two-way combination of the three . . .

Some of this probably comes from playing electric bass and electric guitar, where the fretboard fingers are doing something entirely different from the picking fingers . . .

While my left hand is playing bass lines, melodies, chords, and so forth, my right hand essentially is playing drums, since playing a note on these instruments usually requires both hands, which is different from piano, where one finger can play a note, but with guitar and bass it is a two-part process where for me the left hand presses the string at the location of the note while the right hand picks the string to cause it to vibrate . . .

In other words, you do two things, but for individual notes, you get one note, although I have a bit of success when playing piano when I imagine I am playing a linear drumkit, where the drums and cymbals are piano keys; and since I play drums, I can use my fingers as if they were miniature drumsticks, which maps to being able to play notes on the piano very rapidly, so long as I do not pause to determine whether any specific note is good, bad, or indifferent; and from playing bass and guitar I have a good idea which notes probably fit with the other instrumentation, or at least can be made to fit in one way or another . . .

I would like it to start placing notes below middle C into the bass clef staff.
Is there anyway to tell Notion onto what clef to place notes?

I read your original post a few more times, and the answer to this question is in my previous replies, but to recap all you need to do is to click on the staff where you want the notes to be placed when in "Step-Time" MIDI input recording mode . . .

Since you specifically asked how to tell NOTION to put the notes on the bass clef staff, all you need to do is click on the bass clef staff with the mouse pointer and from that time forward all the notes will go to the bass clef staff of the NOTION grand staff . . .

Similarly, if you click on the treble clef staff, then all the notes you input with your MIDI keyboard from that time forward will be ut on the treble clef staff . . .

And you can switch from one to the other simply by clicking with the mouse on the staff you want to use (bass clef staff or treble clef staff of the same NOTION grand staff) . . .

THOUGHTS

Since you play with both hands, doing the MIDI input recording in continuous mode should work nicely when you are playing with both hands, because it does splits automatically, where the only thing it does not do is cross-staff beaming . . .

I devoted a bit of attention to pondering how an algorithm for "Step-Time" MIDI input recording might work with splits, but instead of identifying anything actually useful, nearly everything appeared to be vastly complex, if not absurdly so . . .

For example, consider that you want to enter a half note with the left hand in the bass but an eighth note with the right hand in the treble . . .

Since "Step-Time" is not time-sensitive, how is NOTION going to know what the composer wants to do?

The composer could click on the left mouse button and then enter a key to specify a half-note duration for the left hand bass note, but that requires at least two user interface gestures; and the same is required to tell NOTION that the right hand is going to play an eighth note on the treble clef staff . . .

In other words, a significant aspect of the problem is that the duration of notes needs to be specified, and in "Step-Time" this cannot be done with the MIDI keyboard, because the MIDI input is not tracking time, which in turn maps to note having the information required to determine note or rest duration . . .

Essentially, it becomes a two-hand process at best, where one hand is working the mouse and computer keyboard, while the other hand is working the MIDI keyboard, and this already is supported in NOTION 4, and switching from treble clef staff to bass clef staff is done easily with the mouse and does not require exiting "Step-Time" MIDI input recording mode . . .

It is an intriguing problem, but at present I am not convinced that the suggestion on the list of things to do was referring to doing splits in "Step-Time" MIDI input recording mode. Instead I think it was referring to cross-staff beaming, which a lot of folks have requested and has been the subject of some at times intense discussions . . .

Lots of FUN!