Cross staff notation

[elerouxx]

While this thread was specific to Cross Staff notation, I agree that courtesy signatures and time changes are a must too.

I just generated the parts for a 5 instruments chamber music. At some point the clarinet is playing in 3/4, and when he turns the PAGE, the score takes him by surprise with a 4/4 signature. That's a composer self-sabotage. Nobody wants parts like that. I hope to see that feature implemented soon.

As for cross-notation, I am AVOIDING composing for piano because of this. And it doesn't make me feel comfortable.

[thorrild]

+1 (to pcartwright's post)

I think that cross-staff notation would be a major step in making Notion better looking on paper. I can certainly understand why Notion staff wants to spend some time figuring out how it can be done with an appropriately sleek, Notion-worthy interface. Consider that this is what goes on in Finale when you design cross-staff notation:

* Select the pitches you want to move graphically (not physically!) using a special tool.
* Adjust stem directions and notehead positions using two additional, special tools.
* Manually move articulations to override automatic placement (yet another tool).
* Slurs may need to be flipped above/below, and they always require manual adjustment. S-shaped slurs are possible, but tricky to design.

This doesn't strike me as a Notion style workflow. Nevertheless, I trust that the Notion folks will eventually find a way to do this that is worthy of the rest of Notion's UI. I also want to congratulate my fellow forum users on finally having found a civilized and constructive tone for this thread. you are the greatest!

Best wishes,
Thorrild

(I wrote this post earlier and posted it—I thought—but it didn't appear. Apologies if this turns out to be a duplicate.)

[elerouxx]

Finale is a very badly designed (and coded) application. Its interface is archaic.

MuseScore's workflow on this:

-Select the notes you want to transfer to the other staff, and hit some command or shortcut. The notes "jump" to the other staff.

cross.jpg (13.43 KiB) Viewed 9998 times

[dshertz]

MuseScore seems to have a reasonable approach to implement cross staff. How do they handle multiple parts?

[elerouxx]

MuseScore seems to have a reasonable approach to implement cross staff. How do they handle multiple parts?

Musescore 1.2 does fair, you can generate parts with one or more instruments. Not very automatic afterwards - i'm just trying to use this feature for the first time.

I'm trying Musescore 2.0 (development) and it's wonderful, it's something more automated but this feature still has some crashes Try it, it's a great application.

Of course it's on another chapter, it sounds nothing like Notion, and note entry is clumsy IMO. Not as bad as finale, but... well, anything is clumsy if compared to Notion. Except for cross-staff notation...

[BrundleFly]

Yeah, that cross-staff beaming looks like some serious rocket-science stuff. I can't imagine a more difficult logic problem in all of computer science. Release the propellerheads!

[elerouxx]

I would love if this was easier to implement.

I don't know notion internals, but the logic on how this should work isn't too complicated. The notes should still belong to the same voice and staff they were created, but have an additional bit of data that tells Notion if the note should be drawn on the oppossite staff. Of course this will only take effect when in a grand staff. The noteheads should then find their positions in the oppossite staff no matter the distance between staves, and the stems should be drawn to reach the beams as usual. I am not saying this is simple to code, i.e. if we have access to the other staff when we are drawing this one. I'm just talking about how it should behave.

cross-staff1.jpg (55.92 KiB) Viewed 9916 times

Now, Notion also has 'almost' crossbeaming capabilities, but it's actually fake, so this will need some work.
You can adjust the beam manually already as in the left part of this image (with the notes in the same staff of course) but the noteheads are drawn on the wrong side of the stem, because Notion thinks all the notes under that beam are 'stem down'. The noteheads should be positioned after the notes being 'effectively' drawn stem up or stem down, not just when they are 'set' to be stem down or stem up.
And Notion never calculates the beam as being 'cross' automatically, which it should if there is a big interval between some of the notes under a single beam. But it's OK to have to adjust the beam manually as long as Notion corrects the noteheads (like in the example at right).

crossstaff2.jpg (51.22 KiB) Viewed 9916 times

What about the notes on the other staff? the cross staffed notes would overlap them!
Doesn't really matter, if you are going to make notes be drawn in the oppossite staff you make room for them. The hidden rests will help when needed. This is not a 'trick' or workaround - just a normal way of thinking for a composer who doesn't make notes cross-staff at random. Obviously there's room for the notes up there (or down there)

What about slurs, glissandos and other lines?
I don't know how it works but if they are simply attached to noteheads, they should be able to be drawn normally.

What about this other problem?
has to be solved.

[Surfwhammy]

Yeah, that cross-staff beaming looks like some serious rocket-science stuff. I can't imagine a more difficult logic problem in all of computer science.

I don't know notion internals, but the logic on how this should work isn't too complicated.

Really!

P. S. To avoid any possible confusion, you would need to have university degrees in Computer Science, Mathematics, and Music, plus at least 5 years of very focused software designing and engineering experience in graphic user interface (GUI) designing and programming, real-time digital audio programming, and advanced transaction system processing before you could begin to understand the basic terminology required to explain what NOTION 3 and NOTION 4 do at a high level, let alone to be able to understand any of what it does internally in the code . . .

[dshertz]

Gee, Surf, where did you get the picture of the CEO of my last company?

[pcartwright]

Ha! I actually agree with Surfwhammy in a certain sense. Cross staff notation should be available as an end user workflow and notation tool, but it could be a complicated coding process within Notion's structure. However, as I said previously, difficulty in execution doesn't much matter to the end product... ease of use and the right balance of features trumps all.

In my humble opinion, Notion has most excellently delivered on 64 bit computing, rewire, and increased playback functionality. I applaud the progress and also hope the developers turn additional focus to notation tools and features.